Yeah, it is.
Comment on "Censorship" ☠️
kboos1@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
Is it not? The definition is the sexualization of a minor or prepubescent girl in anime/manga. Sounds like pedophilia to me.
dreamy@lemmy.blahaj.zone 2 weeks ago
turdas@suppo.fi 2 weeks ago
It has a wider variety of usage in Japanese than “pedophile” does in English, so no, it’s not always the most accurate translation. For example, “lolicon” (ロリコン) is used self-referentially, sometimes as a joke and sometimes not, in Japan while “pedophile” is basically never used like this in English. It’s also not too uncommon to use it of another person as a relatively lighthearted jab in Japanese, when in English calling someone else a pedophile (or even the more casual pedo) is a grave accusation.
Saapas@piefed.zip 2 weeks ago
But isn’t it used about people who are into sexualized (cartoon) children?
turdas@suppo.fi 2 weeks ago
Yes, and it’s also used about actual pedophiles. It’s a word with multiple senses/connotations, and one of those senses corresponds closely with the English word “pedophile” while the others do not. That’s why “pedophile” is not always the correct translation for it – though whether it’s correct in this case I can’t say, as I haven’t watched the anime in question.
Saapas@piefed.zip 2 weeks ago
If you’re into sexualized (cartoon) children you’re a pedophile, so the translation would be factually correct. That sort of pedophilia just has much less cultural acceptance in English speaking world
Klear@piefed.world 2 weeks ago
That just sounds to me that pedophilia is not frowned upon in Japan, not that the translation is inaccurate.
edible_funk@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
So what you’re saying is that culturally Japan doesn’t have as much of a problem with pedophilia as english speaking countries. That’s not really a defense or a refutation that lolicon means pedophile.
sem@piefed.blahaj.zone 2 weeks ago
That is so weird to me that a society with much more Shame basis for stuff does not shame attraction to and relationships with minors.
On the other hand I’ve always wondered when is shame effective as a social motivator to prevent misdeeds, and when does it push people to hide their problems instead of seeking help and solutions?
FishFace@piefed.social 2 weeks ago
That is so weird to me that a society with much more Shame basis for stuff does not shame attraction to and relationships with minors.
Because what a culture considers immoral is not the same as whether they use shame to police immorality.
Whirling_Ashandarei@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
Ah, yes, Japan - famously not a shame policing place. Maybe I should commit seppuku for this dishonor.
sem@piefed.blahaj.zone 2 weeks ago
Important distinction. I don’t understand why they wouldn’t consider it immoral when in the west it seems intrinsically immoral to most people.
emergencyfood@sh.itjust.works 2 weeks ago
Well if the powers that be shamed attraction to and relationships with minors, they would have to accept that forcing themselves on people who aren’t in a position to refuse consent is shameful, and then they would have to answer some very uncomfortable questions about what some of their heroes did in Korea and China …
Lumidaub@feddit.org 2 weeks ago
Hence it wouldn’t be “censorship” as the article seems to use the term. Though that doesn’t really apply at all because to “censor” it would be to not include the scene at all or rewrite it to say something else entirely. Saying “you like lolicon” or even just “you’re a pervert” might be considered euphemistic but it’s not censorship.
DeadDigger@lemmy.zip 2 weeks ago
Well no. Pedophilia is the attraction to real children and lolicon is the attraction to illustrations of child like characters that doesn’t even need to be sexual. The translation is also wrong because in Japanese there exist the loanword pedophilia and it was not used in the original so the translation is also wrong.
flandish@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
this isn’t some baudrillard level type of simulacra shit, it’s literally people using cartoons as analogs to their real attractions, so yes, they are pedos. much in the same way police are pretending to be heros. they all deserve prison. the former and the latter.
Hazel@piefed.blahaj.zone 2 weeks ago
I’m confused, are you pro- or anti policing? 🤔
flandish@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
lol. anti cop.
PlasmaSnake@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
If you are attracted to drawings of children but not real children, I would say that this isn’t pedophilia
Saapas@piefed.zip 2 weeks ago
If you’re into these depictions because they’re depicted as children…
webghost0101@sopuli.xyz 2 weeks ago
Is it because they depict children or because they depict child like features?
By the first, technically adult characters in a child like body (lucky star) wouldn’t count.
By the second, catgirl cosplay counts as bestiality.
Saapas@piefed.zip 2 weeks ago
If someone is specifically into child like features and akshually they’re a 9000 year old dragon, yeah they’re a pedo
DeadDigger@lemmy.zip 2 weeks ago
Well no. Pedophilia in a non medical context is not necessarily about features and mostly about power. Most CSA happens because it is an easy power imbalance, not because the perpetrators are attracted to childrean. For example in many countries with good Internet connections and a low socieoeconomic Standing producers of CSAM are often Mothers that need money for food they the selfs are not pedohiliac they have a power imbalance and an economic incentive. At the same time the viewers of these live streams are often not pedohiliac too but want an easy victim for their Powerfantasie. With this popular depiction lolicons are not the same because as they are only attracted to fictional characters will never harm childrean.
Further a medical pedophile is exclusively or primarily attracted to childrean. Most ppl with pedophilia never harm a child btw. Lolicon on the other hand is not a paraphilia so while you are attracted to fictional childlike characters it has not to be exclusive. From a medical standpoint being sexually attracted to a minor alone is not pedophilia as long as you are as much attracted to non minors. Primary or exclusive attraction is a necessary symptom of pedophilia.
Further in Japanese culture being sexual attracted to post puberty women who have a very childlike demeanor is also considered lolicon. As an example the 24 year old pornstar playing a schoolgirl trope in western porn would also be considered lolicon. A pedohile would be someone that rapes children in person or by proxy. If someone does not understand this difference they are part of the problem.
Zamboni_Driver@lemmy.ca 2 weeks ago
There is a big difference between these too.
🤣🤡
Gormadt@slrpnk.net 2 weeks ago
“But she’s a 500 year old [dragon/elf/vampire/etc] in human form, it’s fine bro.”
Looks like a child, acts like a child, would be considered a child by their own culture/species: That’s a child bro.
I’d like to say I’ve never had that conversation but I have.
“Miss Kobayashi’s Dragon Maid” was fine (though not everyone’s cup of tea) until they started to sexualize the minors (which was basically at the introduction of the child “dragon”). Then I stopped watching it. And from what I hear, I picked a good spot to stop watching as it only got worse from there in regards to the minor characters.
DrPop@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
It’s been awhile since I watched Dragon Maid but I don’t recall that happening with her, maybe I blacked it out. Well there was the other child that was obsessed with her, I just don’t remember anything sexual. I do know that the relationship between the older big tiddy dragon and that boy feels innapropriate. I remembered while writing there is another child dragon with what I would describe as “bodankahonkaroos”. Maybe you’re right. I also think I recall the mangaka making porn of their characters to boost popularity.
Anime can have relationships between minors without oversexualization, even if that is what the characters are feeling.
KairuByte@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 weeks ago
I don’t recall anything sexual happening with any minors, dragon or otherwise. In fact I don’t even recall anything sexual happening… in general, other than the obvious undertones between the two mains. Though I suppose I may have skipped over a fan service episode and not remember.
VitoRobles@lemmy.today 2 weeks ago
Every month I learn about a new manga/anime artist who was caught with CP and they got a slap on the wrist.
gon@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 weeks ago
Well, no, that’s not what it is. It’s young and young-looking characters, not “minor or prepubescent”.
Mind you, plenty lolicon stuff is extremely pedophilic, namely by sexualising prepubescent characters! But lots of it is adult women that just look young and are explicitly not children in any way.
It’s more complicated than “pedophilia”, though the overlap is… Let’s say… Conspicuous.
Saapas@piefed.zip 2 weeks ago
But lots of it is adult women that just look young and are explicitly not children in any way.
Often mocked with the “9000 year old vampire dragon who just happens to look like a young child”
kolmaskommentoija@sopuli.xyz 2 weeks ago
It sometimes gets even weirder, though. I am no expert in anime, but many of the “loli” characters I have encountered, have adult woman hips, but a child’s face, and sometimes also upper body. Something like Tatsumaki in One Punch man for example. So it is sexualizing the child-ish look, while also making it more adult like…? I have not understood what is the point.
gon@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 weeks ago
Well yeah LOL
nitroemdash@lemmy.wtf 2 weeks ago
Per ICD-11, pedophilia can’t be diagnosed if attraction is not acted upon or is distressing the patient. Also it doesn’t count cases where attraction is not primary.
LurkingLuddite@piefed.social 2 weeks ago
Colloquially accurate, though. Weird to use such a restricted definition of a word that has MUCH more common understanding…
PlasmaSnake@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
I’m more interested in whether the DSM includes fictional children in the diagnosis, or if the children must be real
PissingIntoTheWind@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
I almost got kicked out of college. Because I said people have the freedom to draw this garbage because we protect free speech. And it really upset some people. I simply said you can’t police thought and art. But there is a limit depending on what they are doing with the characters.
QuinnyCoded@sh.itjust.works 2 weeks ago
just curious, do you think generating Ai CSAM is still protected under free speech? I would argue lolicon is approximately the same thing
PissingIntoTheWind@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
Nope. I was very immature in my belief. Now I block any manga fetish shit I see. It disgusts me really. And the people are sick who think it up be it prompt or drawing.
lime@feddit.nu 2 weeks ago
especially in the context of an in-universe character saying it, yeah