Submitted 6 days ago by fifi@piefed.zip to [deleted]
…law.ucla.edu/…/trans-adults-united-states/
ur assumption is wrong
i think its bcs of western beauty standards imposed onto female presenting people, meaning it is much harder to pass as a woman than as a man in western societies, or in other words, you notice those who dont pass much more, meaning mtfs.
but it is actually quite balanced, historically it was actually leaning towards ftm (probably bcs patriarchal society made it undesirable to present female)
Thanks for the linked publication. I had the same assumption, not due to in person experience but from what I saw in the online spheres. That felt like 90 % MTF. And I’ve seen multiple online comics in that direction but not the other way around. That’s where my assumption came from.
Online skews things a lot. Often due to how they are raised in childhood you might find more trans women online as being terminally online was more socially acceptable and the norm with their, at the time, peers. Also you tend to find a lot of trans women seeking community to be themselves before coming out whilst trans men are often able to explore their gender more in person so the idea of presenting as the ‘opposite’ gender before or at the start of socially transitioning means trans men might not be seeking that extra level of community and support - there are generally less things to learn from scratch.
Hey, it looks like your plane has chickenpox, might want to get that checked out
Fuck, that means the shingles virus is already inside it.
Wondered how far down id need to scroll to see this image
Aight, ima casually address the disparity in information. I’m in pain, so I’m not fucking with digging up links or reverifying stuff I’ve looked up a dozen times in the past, so keep that in mind regarding details.
So, is there a difference?
Maybe. There’s really limited study done on the matter. This means that, depending on where you go looking for information about the distribution of trans people, you’ll see either that the numbers are roughly the same (with mtf, ftm, and nb each being roughly a third of the trans population), or that there are roughly 2 trans women for each trans man, the most commonly given ratio of 2:1. I have seen it expressed as more 1.5:1 or as high as 3:1, but 2:1 is what I ran into most often when looking for info.
If there is a difference, there are multiple probable factors.
The big one is that there still isn’t a difference in occurrence, only in reporting. This means that it’s possible that the numbers are still roughly the same, but that trans men aren’t always speaking up and/or being counted.
But there are suggestions that the underlying in utero changes that create trans people (and supposedly other variants of the human gender and sexuality spectrum) may simply occur more often in pregnancies where the fertilized egg is XY. That may is a big one, it should be MAY! There’s a lot still unknown about what all variations can occur in utero vs being hard coded, so I can’t pretend there’s scientific certainty about how trans people develop vs cis people.
Now, beyond that it could also be social/cultural. It is often more acceptable for a woman to present in culturally “masculine” ways, so individuals may feel that they don’t need to do anything beyond that for their personal path. It is unusual for men to be accepted for presenting in culturally “feminine” ways, and thus trans women may need to do more than some trans men do, including actually declaring themselves trans rather than quietly passing (which is why is possible it’s purely a reporting issue).
And yes, as much as I hate to bring up passing since passing isn’t mandatory to be your self, it’s necessary to mention it. It isn’t even a term I like, it just feels shitty to claim that anyone gets to decide what is and isn’t the “correct” presentation of a gender. But for this purpose, it’s the one that’ll need the least explanation.
Anyway, there are trans men that can both be satisfied with, and pass with no more than changing their name and manner of dress. This is also possible among trans women, but less often as far as anything I’ve seen covering this subject has said. And it is possible that the number of trans women that aren’t counted among trans women by virtue of passing is high enough that it would skew the ratio back to higher. But it is, again, often brought up as a possible explanation for any numeric imbalances.
The other factor I’ve run across is that trans men may be less aware of being trans, in part because of being more free to engage in traditionally masculine pursuits with less social stigma. By being able to freely live in ways that “feel” right to the person, less dissonance occurs and thus the need to discover one’s transness is delayed or even negated. The dysphoria may never reach a point where it drives the person to transition in any way, they just do “guy stuff” and continue with their birth name and assigned gender, thus being uncounted. This is actually different from the kind of life aforementioned where the person does transition, but passes and remains uncounted.
That’s the stuff I’ve run across in conversation and reading over the years. First in trying to understand the trans experience better, to internalize it so I could better empathize. Then out of personal curiosity about the medical side of things, which ties into the sociological and psychological factors. I can’t be arsed to go link digging though, as my initial disclaimer said, so if you quote any of this, be aware of that.
It is often more acceptable for a woman to present in culturally “masculine” ways, so individuals may feel that they don’t need to do anything beyond that for their personal path. It is unusual for men to be accepted for presenting in culturally “feminine” ways, and thus trans women may need to do more than some trans men do, including actually declaring themselves trans rather than quietly passing (which is why is possible it’s purely a reporting issue).
Very good point. A HUGE underlying current of transphobia is misogyny. Historically women are the scapegoat class. The idea that a lowly woman would want to be a man only seems natural in this scenario. Little girls are encouraged to do “boy things” while little boys are often discouraged, disciplined or even outright abused for doing “girl things”. There’s a strict enforcement of male centric norms being superior so women do have more “freedom” to explore that realm as where men are ostracized at the slightest indication of femininity because it’s inherently “below” his assigned station - that’s why transphobes need to obsess over genitals, it’s critical for them to enforce this sharp misogynistic divide, man good, woman bad there for woman aspiring to masculinity good, man aspiring to femininity bad and disgusting. Strict enforcement of gender roles is both misogynistic and transphobic.
Yeah, I have a trans son, and he had to literally come out to me, because my conception of womanhood is so broad that simply dressing like a fashion-averse 40 year old lesbian did not even register with me as anything boyish. I have other kids (when you have a lot of them you are more likely to get some of everything) who are gay so I just figured he was a butch girl.
I wonder, if neurodiversity plays any role. As far as I know, autistic people have been reported to have a higher percentage of difference in gender presentation, and the number of autistic amab have traditionally been higher. Though maybe that is now changing, as the diagnostic criteria has started to shift towards recognizing the traits more commonly showing in afab people… I have not read any recent studies about it, though.
Its tricky to say when it comes to that. How do you tell if neurodiversity results in more likely to be trans vs neurodivergent people are more likely to break the taboo and are more likely to come out vs remain closeted? (Which is a feasible thought if there is actually a meaningful disparity and the way that autism can present in childhood?).
Either way its a really dangerous subject because it already gets vastly misused to claim that gender affiming care is abuse of ND (mainly autistic) people - simultaneously removing their own agency and treating them as simpletons who don’t know what they are as well as indicating that trans people don’t really exist because its all some kind of delusion from being autistic.
The more interesting statistic I saw was prevelance of gender diverse people with EDS - up to 17% (eds.clinic/…/transgender-and-non-binary-identitie…) but could actually in theory skew numbers towards more trans men… Its all a bit wooly unfortunately.
Visibility paradox. Believe it or not, it’s about 50/50. Trans women are just more visible than trans men, and because of this, more likely to vocally reach out for help.
It’s a reflection of patriarchy, unfortunately.
It’s a reflection of patriarchy, unfortunately.
I pondered adding some text in the body but wasn’t sure how to correctly put my feelings on a possible “why” into words, but I think this really represents how I feel why it could be.
Being a tomboy is more socially accepted than being a sissy.
Also somehow less visible? Probably connected to being more acceptable.
men are generally invisible in society unless they are powerful or influential.
lots of ftm people talk about how becoming a man is so shocking because once they pass they become totally invisible as human beings. nobody cares about them anymore, like they did when they were women.
isn’t that the opposite though? Tomboys are women who dress like men. Sissies are men who dress like women. OP asked why transwomen are more common than transmen.
Trans people who don’t pass often get perceived as gender non-conforming. Trans people who do pass are perceived as cis (that’s kind of the point of passing).
Think of it this way: Think of a woman wearing a suit and having a short haircut. Next think of a man wearing a dress and having long hair. Which one is more likely to draw attention in public?
That’s a visibility bias, which obviously exists, but medical statistics that largely eliminate it also show a big disparity.
Also this only applies to people who don’t pass, which is most trans people at some point. And wouldn’t the stigma associated with male feminine crossdressing actually discourage people from coming out and trying to get over the dreaded non-passing period?
not everyone who cross dresses is trans.
part of the appeal of cross dressing, is the stigma.
One would have to use science to attempt to answer that question. Science is on hold right now, due to right wing fascists permeating every facet of govevernment, please hold while this situation eventually resolves itself
Because only Americans are smart enough to make science…
Sadly the right wing isn’t only messing with 'Murica at this point in time - so…
That’s not the case… There used to be more trans women visiting gender clinics than trans men, which we got old stats from, but nowadays all the stats you can see show it pretty much 50/50.
Do you have a statistic on that or have you just heard of more mtf than ftm?
I don’t know for sure if there’s more of one than the other, but I will say that ftm folks tend to hang out in different communities than here and Reddit. I find them on tumblr and Bluesky mostly, and especially art communities. I think because those communities are pretty friendly to afab folks exploring other sexualities and expressions, so it feels safe to come out as ftm there. Those communities are generally very supportive and open, I see binder safety advice, passing tips, or just general encouragement roll onto my feed completely unsolicited, and I just follow people for art.
Medical data suggests there is about a 3:1 to 2:1 ratio. In trans spaces, this gets further amplified by the network effect: a member of a minority is more likely to stumble upon another such person if the group is larger, and the number of possible connections grows quadratically, so people pointing out bias in other comments are not entirely wrong. Similarly, medical data is probably also skewed because it’s obviously self-reported and people are more likely to come out if they feel they’ll get support and to “find out” if their kind of gender questioning process is more frequently discussed. However, these biases don’t explain all the disparity. Research is ongoing but preliminary results ssuggest that of the recessive genes that correlate with people reporting medically as trans, more exist on the X chromosome and since the vast majority of AMAB people have XY chromosomes, they only have one X copy and recessive genes (incl. “trans” ones) are more likely to manifest.
Are there?
Because women are the better sex.
Peter Pan syndrome. Men don’t want the responsibility of being breadwinners/leaders/whatever, so they choose to be women instead. At least, that’s what my husband and I think it is.
This implies that being trans is a decision. Wouldn’t it be nice to be able to choose whether you have schizophrenia or autism or ADHD too? Do it for attention for a while, mayhaps, and then once it starts getting tiring go back to normal?
Not to mention that being a man automatically means being breadwinners/leaders/whatever is a bit of an outdated way of thinking. Gender equality still has a long way to go, but damn, successful women in stem exist and I would like to think that you can at least choose to become a househusband in this day and age… And if one truly cannot find a woman that wins enough to support both, maybe they can just “choose” to swing another way? Have you asked your husband if he’s ever thought about doing that? It’d be a very reasonable financial decision, I encourage him to give it a thought.
And it’s not as though being trans is a walk in the park. If one chooses to be trans, they’re going to get a life with far, far more worries than if they’d just stayed as the gender they were assigned at birth. Tons of people who hate them just for existing will appear, and whether they lose the right to exist could change in the future…
it’s only outdated amongst college-educated liberal people, and even then it’s not really.
successsful women in stem still want dominant male providers, and very few want househusbands.
Women aren’t breadwinners? In this economy?
coming from a single income family its not something people can choose to do nowadays unless you are wealthy and has never been much of a choice if you were poor. Middle class is just gone.
When we’re still developing in the womb, we all start as women. A hormonal change causes the fetus to start switching over to developing as male, which is why every single man has a seam running up their ballsack. In any case, it’s my firm belief that this hormonal change is not a switch, but more like a gradual change. Some get all the external parts but something might not change all the way in the mind. Others have it differently, which is how you get intersex folks. In any case, one does not decide to live their life as a woman, who typically have it much harder than men, on a whim.
are there? I may have met some trans people but if so I am not specifically aware of it. I mean heck I have only known so many gay people and that is a much larger population. I really don’t know the ratios.
I thought that being trans was more prevalent with those who grew up as girls? And I thought some scientists speculated that this may be because men have more freedoms in society?
It’s hilarious that “fifi” is slang for “pussy” in one of my first languages.🤭
There is a Czech cartoon character named Fifi, and she’s a bitch.
fatcat@discuss.tchncs.de 6 days ago
Statistics says no! Actually pretty balanced. Maybe you just notice trans fem people more?
Darkcoffee@sh.itjust.works 6 days ago
It solidifies the notion that men being masculine is such a strong stereotype that any deviation from it is noticed far more.
deadcream@sopuli.xyz 6 days ago
Transwomen are definitely more visible in online spaces more (at least as a group). E.g. here in threadiverse 99% of posts from trans communities in the “all” feed are mtf related, even on general trans communities. And transfem communities are much more active.
communism@lemmy.ml 6 days ago
That’s definitely a you thing of where you go on the internet. e.g. on Tumblr or ao3 the bias in the trans population is in the opposite direction.
fifi@piefed.zip 5 days ago
That’s probably what caused me to post, especially to a safer space like nostupidquestions. I had an impulse feeling, I was already falling asleep, but really wanted to ask. Pretty great to see all the information condensed in this thread!
ruuster13@lemmy.zip 6 days ago
Flawed sampling methodology
SouthEndSunset@piefed.blahaj.zone 6 days ago
Probably cause of all the “men dressing as women and going in women’s spaces” bollocks.
ChaoticNeutralCzech@feddit.org 6 days ago
Medical statistics say “there are huge error bars by methodology but it’s about 2:1”. Of course, this does include biases that make some people more likely to “find out” and “come out” but not the visibility bias (which plays some role on the former two but not as much).
Semjeza@fedinsfw.app 6 days ago
I don’t know if it’s true, but I think I heard that in terms of transitions in the last decade, FtM outnumbers MtF.