Is there any actual proof of valve taking actions to limit competition or are they just popular because they have a good business model?
Dutch gamers file €220 million claim against Valve, operator of game platform Steam
Submitted 1 day ago by qarbone@lemmy.world to games@lemmy.world
Comments
ski11erboi@lemmy.world 1 day ago
AwesomeLowlander@sh.itjust.works 1 day ago
They don’t limit competition, but it’s a more open question whether they are engaging in a form of price fixing.
Holytimes@sh.itjust.works 1 day ago
The problem is if valve is price fixing then it would mean any company that limits the use of their service to others via fixed pricing agreements would also be price fixing.
If a company is no longer allowed to have control over their own service when used by others then functionally you cant have second or third parties anymore. It would basically break the very concept.
Cause yes valve does prevent you from selling your game on other platforms at a cheaper rate, so long as you are doing so via steam key or when valve servers will be the source of distribution. This keeps coming up over and over and its wild that people seem to think that valve should not be allowed to limit the abuse of their own servers.
The only example ever floated of them doing this with out steam keys or them being the distribution source was a single email from steam support to a developer. That has been proven over and over to have been a miscommunication and not actually an enforced policy.
Theres a lot of questions on how healthy it is for valve to be so dominate in the market and to have such a wide reach. But the fact is that other companies keep leaning on valve for distribution or build their entire company around it either legitly or though majority theft cough g2g cough.
Everyone else MADE valve into the market dominator either willing or via ignorance and bad business. It valve ever does turn fully evil we are fucked yes. But no one ever seems to want to actually try to fix the problem of everyone else being stupid as fuck. Instead just trying to legal valve into oblivion.
THE_GR8_MIKE@lemmy.world 1 day ago
Seems to me the only fixing they’re doing is fixing the prices lower than other clients.
Rather than what you usually hear with price fixing, where prices go up. Like Amazon with Levi jeans.
Flames5123@sh.itjust.works 8 hours ago
Yes here: wolfire.com/…/Regarding-the-Valve-class-action/
They have the proof in the claim, but I don’t know if it’s public yet.
I agree that steam should enforce STEAM CODE sales to be the same price, but this is just a download of the game. I hope steam just fucked yo here and misunderstood; otherwise, it’s completely anticompetitive and is illegal based on the contract the developer signed from valve.
ParlimentOfDoom@piefed.zip 23 hours ago
Yes, but all the valve fanboys will argue anyone who mentions the multiple price fixing lawsuits (which are not related to using steam key sellers, but they’ll endlessly post that TOS clause anyway) against Valve into oblivion.
mnemonicmonkeys@sh.itjust.works 19 hours ago
A pending lawsuit is a merely a claim, not a proven fact or hard evidence. Swamping an entity with lawsuits doesn’t mean the defendent is guilty, because you can sue for anything.
We’ve already seen this happen with Monsanto, Disney, Nintendo, etc. where they go after smaller entities by smothering them in lawsuits to drain their coffers. It doesn’t matter if some lawsuits get thrown out or whether they’re valid, they just need to squash the competition.
And Microsoft, Apple, Nintendo, Sony, Epic, Ubisoft, EA, etc. all have financial reason to see Valve fall. Linux adoption is a threat to Microsoft and Apple, the PC market is a threat to console manufacturers, and having a pro-consumer store as the dominant player in the market limits what anti-consumer practices other storefronts can do.
Don’t just blindly trust claims and speculation, especially when there’s a lot of finilancial incentive to lie. Wait for lawsuits to actually get resolved.
gmtom@lemmy.world 23 hours ago
I know from experience valve coerces developers into participating in their sale events, basically saying there game won’t get promoted on the store or in searches unless they agree to sales.
Which considering they already take a massive 30% cut of developers earnings, is very scummy. Lots of indie Devs that already struggle to make money and already sell their games for super cheap are basically forced to cut their profits even further just to get some visibility on the platform.
mnemonicmonkeys@sh.itjust.works 20 hours ago
basically saying there game won’t get promoted on the store or in searches unless they agree to sales.
I’m very skeptical of that. The Factorio devs famously refuse to ever put the game on sale, and has even increased the price over time to account for inflation. Yet they’re one of the most popular games on Steam
Datz@szmer.info 22 hours ago
-
I believe you, but they were asking for proof. Sources.
-
If 30% is massive, what do you propose the cut be? Epic said their 12% cut was unsustainable already.
-
Nugscree@lemmy.world 1 day ago
It’s not the gamers, it’s a commission and there is a lot of misinformation on their website (it can be viewed in English). gameclaim.consumercompetitionclaims.com
Also tweakers.net a Dutch tech enthusiast website had a good post about it, most of the commenters do not agree with this as well tweakers.net/…/steam-laat-klanten-te-veel-betalen… (Dutch only so you’ll have to use a translator if you want to read it)
People keep forgetting that in the olden days, the left over cut for the publisher was about 40% of the game value, the rest went to warehouse, shipping, and the retailer all got something. The rough estimate left over cut for the developer was 10~15%.
Now a days as a developer you can sell directly to the customer through Steam, and you don’t need a publisher or a network if you only sell on Steam. So that 10~15% cut went to 70% (till x amount of revenue and then it gets lower).
Next to Steam not being a monopoly and Valve providing all the other companies the blueprint for a success in the PC market, none of the competitors follows it, or compare to the customer service of Steam. And it seems that none of those other billion dollar competitors (Microsoft, Amazon and Epic) wants to invest in a solid platform to stand up to Steam.
a4ng3l@lemmy.world 23 hours ago
Not even a commission (which would be governmental), it’s purely litigational… See my other comment on who is behind it…
SkunkWorkz@lemmy.world 20 hours ago
When the 30% fee gets lowered prices won’t come down. The market has already shown that consumers are willing to pay for the games at the current price level. Publishers will just pocket the increased revenue, instead of passing it on to the consumer.
Fredthefishlord@lemmy.blahaj.zone 14 hours ago
It means more money going to indie devs instead of Gabe’s pocket.
SkunkWorkz@lemmy.world 20 minutes ago
True, but that’s not the goal of this initiative
Vex_Detrause@lemmy.ca 13 hours ago
30% is what everyone charge right?
PieMePlenty@lemmy.world 1 day ago
I don’t want to be a steam shill, but does the prevention of selling games cheaper (if this is true or effectively enforced) even do any good? I have over a thousand games on Steam, but I doubt I bout 10% of the games from them. Heck, the latest game I remember buying at release was Oblivion Remaster, and I got it from GMG because it was 17% cheaper on release day then on steam. This happens constantly.
If we are to objectively look at the problem, why would lifting this rule automatically mean games would be cheaper elsewhere? One of the biggest slogans in favor of Brexit was something along the lines: “of EU membership costing 350m pounds per week, lets spend it on the NHS instead”.a4ng3l@lemmy.world 1 day ago
I’m curious who’s bankrolling them for this one.
They are not the same as Noyb who actually are very transparent and actually « believe » in something : these dudes are closer to insurance claims chasers from what I read about them.
Also I love their Q&A that states that they don’t get money from this
No. The Consumenten Competition Claims Foundation is a non-profit foundation.
Someone is absolutely paying them for the action it’s literally 5 questions above and is Winward NL. And they go back to my ambulance chaser parallel since it’s just a company doing litigation finance.
There’s nothing showing links from those guys to broader financial interests but that would not be out of the possibilities.
chameleon@fedia.io 1 day ago
A different FAQ item mentions Winward NL Limited is in the Cayman Islands, which is a really nice place if you would want to hide such links. But yeah, could also be a bunch of individuals just looking for some extra yachts (bonus irony if they buy them from Gaben's yacht company).
a4ng3l@lemmy.world 1 day ago
Indeed.
From their page (www.winward.uk/about) they are funded by Rocade Capital. Rocade Capital itself links to EJF Capital and Barings.
It all could be unethical gambling based on the last Epics shenanigans… Maybe the chances to get a jugement favouring them is now statistically higher than against them.
Katana314@lemmy.world 1 day ago
Why not go for a bigger company first?
Apple does the same thing with ebooks. When I put my book up for sale with Apple, the terms stated that I could not list it for a lower price at another store. So no, that is not a new form of price fixing.
Also interested to hear what other digital goods stores charge less than 30%, aside from Epic who definitely wouldn’t maintain that if they had the monopoly position.
richardwallass@sh.itjust.works 21 hours ago
Apple ebook market share is not 85%
mnemonicmonkeys@sh.itjust.works 15 hours ago
Yet.
Anti-consumer behavior is anti-consumer behavior
AngryRobot@lemmy.world 18 hours ago
Do these people think that packaging costs plus retail markup were under 30% of a game’s cost when we bought physical PC games?
piyuv@lemmy.world 1 day ago
I love valve as much as any other gamer but I’m with Dutchies on this one. Valve has monopolistic policies
alsimoneau@lemmy.ca 1 day ago
Name one
Flames5123@sh.itjust.works 7 hours ago
wolfire.com/…/Regarding-the-Valve-class-action/
This dev was trying to sell his own game on his own site. A single player game. No steam keys. Just a download. And got threatened by valve to stop or be removed from steam. Illegal since that’s NOT in the contract he signed.
atro_city@fedia.io 1 day ago
Maybe if you read the goddamn article you'd know of one?
The foundation claims that Valve holds a dominant position in the market, estimated at around 85%, and is breaching competition law through so-called Most-Favoured Nation clauses. According to the complaint, these terms prevent developers from selling games more cheaply on rival platforms like the Epic Games Store than on Steam. This, they argue, keeps prices across the PC gaming market artificially elevated.
atro_city@fedia.io 1 day ago
People in the comments are vehemently supporting a monopolist because the monopolist is currently good. No wonder people are so easy to control. If you keep them distracted for long enough, you can take everything they own and they'll only notice once the lights go off and the chair stolen from underneath their fat asses.
We deserve Trump and every single politician we get because we're such a bunch of idiots.
reksas@sopuli.xyz 1 day ago
First we take down valves “monopoly”, then we yell hurray and watch all the other companies suddenly turn good?
What do you propose should be done?
ParlimentOfDoom@piefed.zip 23 hours ago
First, Stopping a monopoly from doing monopolistic things isn’t the same as breaking up the monopoly…
Holding the biggest player accountable for shitty behavior sets a precedent that you’ll keep the rest from doing it, too.
Arguing that any other business would do the same thing in defense of this shitty action, doesn’t help anyone.
atro_city@fedia.io 23 hours ago
No need to put monopoly in quotes. Owning 85% of the market is a monopoly. Do you want them to reach 100% for you to go "yep, now it's a monopoly, now we should do something"?
A monopoly doesn't need monopolistic behaviour to be a monopoly. The monopolistic behaviour Steam has is what's being targeted. If Steam were impeding competition in other ways, those would have to be dealt with too.
Just because you have a favourite friend, doesn't mean they can't do wrong.
richardwallass@sh.itjust.works 21 hours ago
You can like Valve but you cannot deny it’s dominant position in the market. It is a monopoly. It’s a fact.
d5273@lemmy.world 3 hours ago
Explain
Summzashi@lemmy.world 16 hours ago
That not a fact at all. That’s not what a monopoly is.
dreamkeeper@literature.cafe 14 hours ago
Steam is absolutely a monopoly. It’s as clear as day you just don’t want to admit it.
Even at its height, Standard Oil never controlled 100% of the market.
godsammitdam@lemmy.zip 18 hours ago
Why is it a monopoly? Epic, Xbox, Amazon, and more exist…they just don’t follow the steam template nor invest in their platform as much as steam does. 🤷♂️ how is Valve acting in an anti-competitive way?
dreamkeeper@literature.cafe 14 hours ago
Good lord valve fanboys are insufferable. Of any other company controlled 80%-90% of sales in one sector if the economy you wouldn’t hesitate to call what it is, a monopoly.
As if you aren’t aware that tons of AAA only launch on steam.
auzy1@lemmy.world 14 hours ago
Oh. PlayStation, Xbox and switch don’t exist?
Games are also sold on apples App store
Fairly sure at least 3 of these stores are bigger. Most people don’t even know what steam is
Dyskolos@lemmy.zip 12 hours ago
Most people don’t even know what steam is
Maybe those who don’t own a PC but only ever knew consoles. Everyone else sure does know steam.
dreamkeeper@literature.cafe 14 hours ago
How are PS and and Switch an agent against a monopoly on PC game sales? This is quite a reach
gmtom@lemmy.world 23 hours ago
The man children who think Gabe Newell is their best friend are going to be very mad about this.
Covenant@sh.itjust.works 24 minutes ago
This sounds more like lobbying than consumer right.