What was the 'bear vs man' controversy?

Submitted ⁨⁨1⁩ ⁨week⁩ ago⁩ by ⁨EnthusiasticNature94@lemmy.blahaj.zone⁩ to ⁨[deleted]⁩

First, please be respectful in the comments. I have no idea what the topic was, but apparently it caused a lot of divide. I prefer just the claims and facts, backed by citations, and let me draw my own conclusions. I can think for myself. 😅

I’m curious because it seemed to have happened about a year ago, and then there were concerns of Lemmy being a worse place for women than Reddit.

I don’t really see that now. Granted, I’m new, and maybe it’s the specific communities I subscribed to, but I haven’t really seen much women-hating in posts or comments. If anything, I’ve seen a bias towards liberal viewpoints (many of which I personally agree with, but sometimes the justifications use poor reasoning and almost comes off as a bad defense or covert sabotage).

I’m hoping Lemmy changed for the better in the past year, and I’m not about to be side slammed with some misogyny. 🙏🏼

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SnotFlickerman@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨1⁩ ⁨week⁩ ago

I have no idea what the topic was

The bear vs man story was a social commentary thing where women were trying to show men how dangerous and confusing men often seemed to be with an anecdote about whether or not they would want to run into a bear in the woods or a man in the woods.

Women tried to make clear that they would most often want to run into a bear, because they know what a bear will do. They don’t have to constantly second-guess themselves about the nature of the bear. The bear can be scary, but if you’re prepared and know what to do, you can make it out alive.

The opposite is how they feel with men. They feel like they cannot know a mans actual intentions in the woods and it could be anything from wanting to help her if she’s lost all the way to leading her to a rape/kill dungeon in the woods.

Thus, they would rather run into the bear where they can always know the bears intentions, and thus always know how to properly respond to the sight of the bear, they don’t ever need to second guess themselves on the intentions of the bear. Whereas they have to treat all men as though they are their worst iterations just to be safe, and that can be frustrating and confusing and they also know that it’s hurtful to treat men who may not be terrible that way. Yet they feel the need to do so to feel safe and secure and not be taking a risk.

Now, as for a specific conversation on Lemmy that lead people to believe Lemmy was worse for women than reddit. I couldn’t point you to that, but that also would not surprise me in the least. Lemmy overall does seem to skew heavily on the side of cisgender men. The blahaj lemmy is pretty small compared to others, for example, and probably hosts the largest number of genders other than cisgender men.

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- Clent@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨1⁩ ⁨week⁩ ago
  
  Whereas they have to treat all men as though they are their worst iterations just to be safe, and that can be frustrating and confusing and they also know that it’s hurtful to treat men who may not be terrible that way.
  
  It’s more complicated than that. They have to treat men with unearned respect while planning for the worse. Treating man as a threat can make him a threat if he feels his masculinity is threaten he may act erratically.
  
  To put it the other way, they don’t have to worry about managing the bear’s feelings.
  
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  - SnotFlickerman@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨1⁩ ⁨week⁩ ago
    Excellent point.
    
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- EnthusiasticNature94@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨1⁩ ⁨week⁩ ago
  Thank you so much for explaining all of this. 🙏🏼
  
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  - TheLadyAugust@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨week⁩ ago
    Yeah, Snot did a really good job. I’m actually saving this to forward on to other people. Thank you for making this post and thank you Snot for your reply.
    
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- AA5B@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨week⁩ ago
  Too many people definitely took it personally, but I don’t think I ever saw it explained as well as you just did. All too often we just react, rather than constructively understand what was trying to be communicated
  
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- Nibodhika@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨week⁩ ago
  While I think that’s a great way to view the question, and can definitely see the reasoning and sort of agree with it, there’s one test that can be made for some arguments to know whether they’re inherently prejudiced or not, that is the black switch. This works because our society has internalized racism, at least the talking of it, to a point where we can easily recognize racist statements, while the same is not true for sexist statements yet.
  
  With that in mind how would it be if the question was “would you rather be in a forest with a bear or a black person?”. You immediately recognize the inherent racism there, and the person asking that question could very easily show statistics on the number of crimes committed per ethnicity to prove his point of why he would choose the bear, and even argue the same you did that a bear is predictable humans are not. Still you understand that the question is inherently racist.
  
  This is not to say there’s no issues to be discussed here, or that women don’t suffer at the hands of monsters out there, and if you can’t understand why women would choose the bear you need to read more into what they go through… But still, regardless of all of that, the question is inherently sexist.
  
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  - amino@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨1⁩ ⁨week⁩ ago
    you can’t be sexist against the people who invented sexism, that’s just silly
    
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- peregrin5@lemm.ee ⁨1⁩ ⁨week⁩ ago
  I feel like Lemmy has a high number of cis men and trans women (maybe also trans men), but very very few cis women.
  
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  - SnotFlickerman@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨1⁩ ⁨week⁩ ago
    Real talk, I agree. I think trans men are still deeply in the minority, too.
    
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- Professorozone@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨week⁩ ago
  I think you may have missed a small but important part of the concept. I believe women also felt the LIKELIHOOD of a man being dangerous was higher than the bear’s, for all the reasons you stated.
  
  If women had overall very favorable interactions with men they might choose the man in the woods because a bear is very unlikely to help her. So the man would be the obvious choice with such a low probability event. But to them, it isn’t low probability and that speaks volumes.
  
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- Tja@programming.dev ⁨1⁩ ⁨week⁩ ago
  One thing I would not agree is the unusual prevalence of cis men on lemmy. I saw many more trans discussions on lemmy than any other platform. At least when I joined the amount of posts in my timeline from blahaj was so high that I had to mute it after a while. It looked to me that there’s no other topic of discussion on lemmy than Linux and trans rights. And while I support trans people with all my heart, it got just boring and repetitive after a week, it’s not a topic that I want to fill my free time with.
  
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- spacequetzal@lemm.ee ⁨1⁩ ⁨week⁩ ago
  You are such a great writer.
  
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- Thassodar@lemm.ee ⁨1⁩ ⁨week⁩ ago
  You hit it pretty perfectly.
  
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kitnaht@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨week⁩ ago
They asked Women if they’d rather be alone in the woods and come across a bear, or a man; and many of them chose bear because they thought men were untrustworthy.

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- pleasestopasking@reddthat.com ⁨1⁩ ⁨week⁩ ago
  A viewpoint from someone who would choose the bear:: I don’t think all men are by default violent sexual predators. It’s much more about the fear that we won’t be believed.
  
  Nobody questions whether you wanted to be attacked by a bear. Nobody makes the case that the bear just made a mistake and we don’t want to ruin his future. Nobody suggests that you lead the bear on then changed your mind. It behooves us to be wary of being vulnerable with men until we have more information about the specific man we’re engaging with because of things go sideways there’s a good chance we’ll be blamed.
  
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  - jeffw@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨week⁩ ago
    The person you’re responding to entirely missed the point and the accusation of misandry is misguided
    
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  - null_dot@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨1⁩ ⁨week⁩ ago
    A viewpoint from someone who is a man and not a sexual predator:: this statement is so incendiary because the odds of being mauled to death by a bear you meet are so high, while the odds of being sexually assaulted by a man you meet are so low.
    
    As someone who doesn’t live somewhere that has bears I don’t really know how it works, at first glance the phrase “come across a bear” implies a certainty of a revenant style bear fight, but I suppose if you know something about bear behavior can identify the type of bear maybe it’s not a big deal?
    
    Alternatively, how many encounters between lone women and lone men in the woods result in sexual assault? There’s some places in my area where people walk daily. There would be dozens of such encounters, and IDK the “sexual assault rate” but it would be a big deal if someone had been raped in the woods. Notwithstanding unreported assaults, I don’t think it’s something that’s happened? I’m guessing but I wouldn’t be surprised if the rate is less than 1 encounter in a million.
    
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  - DebatableRaccoon@lemmy.ca ⁨1⁩ ⁨week⁩ ago
    Sadly, the reverse has come to be true for a lot of men.
    
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  - rabber@lemmy.ca ⁨1⁩ ⁨week⁩ ago
    Anyone who says bear literally doesn’t know what a bear is and lives in some concrete jungle
    
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- starman2112@sh.itjust.works ⁨1⁩ ⁨week⁩ ago
  If you’re lost in the woods, would you rather run into a bear, or a man who is 10% larger than you and wants to have sex with you?
  
  Hopefully this rephrasing of the question helps you understand the answer women tend to give a little better
  
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  - kitnaht@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨week⁩ ago
    See, this is a perfect example – this person very clearly thinks that all men only want to have sex. It paints that picture absolutely perfectly.
    
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kibiz0r@midwest.social ⁨1⁩ ⁨week⁩ ago
SnotFlickerman nailed it, so I’ll just add that the “man or bear” saga taught me what a “scissor statement” is.

For me, that was the biggest revelation of the whole thing.

You had people encountering the same general words in the same general order, but understanding them to mean completely different things, and not being able to comprehend how anyone could disagree with them.

It was like a rehash of “the dress”, but not so whimsical.

It was really kind of distressing, the extent to which it laid bare (no pun intended) how poorly we’re actually communicating with each other online, even though it otherwise seems like we’re communicating more than ever.

Aaaaand then we just kinda shrugged that off and went back to internet as usual.

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- SnotFlickerman@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨1⁩ ⁨week⁩ ago
  That link is fucking crazy. Thank you for sharing, fuggen bookmarked.
  
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- EnthusiasticNature94@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨1⁩ ⁨week⁩ ago
  Yeah, I’m not engaging with the bear vs man debate, lol.
  
  I’m more concerned about how some reacted to it than the debate itself.
  
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- starman2112@sh.itjust.works ⁨1⁩ ⁨week⁩ ago
  Jesus Christ. Even if I do think the story is fictional, I could believe that our current media landscape has been ruined by advertising firms.
  
  Here’s an example of a scissor state entrance that I’ve been calling out for years: the Israel-Palestine conflict. It’s designed to be something that divides people. Not inviting your israel-supporting aunt to Thanksgiving and blocking your Palestine-supporting nephew is what the Man wants. That conflict, for as strongly as people feel about it here, does not matter to Americans. Nearly as many people have died fighting in the Myanmar civil war, and I don’t know a single person who even has an opinion on that.
  
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  - Tw4tnoM0r3@lemmy.cafe ⁨1⁩ ⁨week⁩ ago
    
    Nearly as many people have died fighting in the Myanmar civil war, and I don’t know a single person who even has an opinion on that.
    
    Wait you guys were sending bombs to myanmar as well?
    
    That conflict, for as strongly as people feel about it here, does not matter to Americans
    
    Of course it doesn’t. Americans are inherently suppremacist and doesn’t think of foreigners as human.
    
    Which is why I don’t consider you as human. Works both way. In short, if I’m ever given the choice between fascism here and a genocide in america, well, I hope you have a place to hide. Bitch
    
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  - Tw4tnoM0r3@lemmy.cafe ⁨1⁩ ⁨week⁩ ago
    Last year my friend in lebannon got widowed.
    
    Your uncle is a scum and you should invite him to feed him strichnine.
    
    And maybe swallow a bit for having voted for genociders.
    
    Your entire country is morally fucked. And so are you
    
    Scum
    
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- pycorax@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨week⁩ ago
  Maybe I’m generalising it a bit but it does seem like the main issue is the lack of open mindedness, compassion and an inclination for aggressive responses rather than simply agreeing to disagree.
  
  Which unfortunately is a difficult thing to achieve since you need both sides to have the same mindset for any healthy discussion to happen. The moment one side decides to be antagonistic, it quickly derails the tone of the conversation regardless how open the other side may be. Heck this happens all the time here. It’s called no stupid questions but people will still flame others for asking questions lol.
  
  The scissor statement just serves to accelerate whatever problem already exists.
  
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- Dumbitch@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨1⁩ ⁨week⁩ ago
  Cool link but the blog writer is clearly mentally ill.
  
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  - sinceasdf@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨week⁩ ago
    I mean that’s kind of the point. What types of experiences can make someone “mentally ill”? Can it be weaponized against an otherwise cohesive society?
    
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gasgiant@lemmy.ml ⁨1⁩ ⁨week⁩ ago
The major issue I had with this is that it plays into the alpha male misogynistic ideal of strength.

Some of them will almost certainly see it as a badge of honour. That they are so dominant that some stupid women (their opinion) will misinterpret that and get into trouble with a bear.

I was trying to come up with a way to rephrase it.

Something like would you rather be alone with a man or separate but you both have to eat a bowl of dog shit.

If women choose the bowl there are nasty consequences for both and it’s clearer they would rather deal with that than the man.

Nowhere near as catchy though…

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- EnthusiasticNature94@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨1⁩ ⁨week⁩ ago
  Thank you for your insight.
  
  I was more concerned about how men reacted to it than the legitimacy or analysis of the ‘bear vs man’ hypothetical.
  
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- Dumbitch@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨1⁩ ⁨week⁩ ago
  Cool link but the writer is clearly mentally ill.
  
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Zero22xx@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨1⁩ ⁨week⁩ ago
It was a repeat of #MenAreTrash and a little bit of #MeToo using different words this time. And just like any other time there is an awareness campaign that highlights the general statistics and truth of things, instead of inspiring men to take a stand and push for any change or correcting of shitty, toxic behaviour; the so called loud minority rushes in to say “not all men” and defend the status quo while the so called silent majority lets them.

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- EnthusiasticNature94@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨1⁩ ⁨week⁩ ago
  Thank you for your insight.
  
  I was more concerned about how men reacted to it than the legitimacy or analysis of the ‘bear vs man’ hypothetical.
  
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SatansMaggotyCumFart@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨week⁩ ago
I don’t think there was ever a serious systematic concern that Lemmy was a worse place then Reddit for women but it was that viral thing about who you’d rather come across in the woods a man or a bear.

The main person accusing Lemmy of being a terrible place still posts here constantly so take that as you’d like.

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SolOrion@sh.itjust.works ⁨1⁩ ⁨week⁩ ago
I’m confused, can you provide some context?

I know about the bear vs man thing that went viral for awhile- “Would you rather be alone in the woods with a bear or a man?”, but I haven’t ever seen it in a Lemmy vs Reddit context.

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- EnthusiasticNature94@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨1⁩ ⁨week⁩ ago
  Unfortunately, I don’t even know what the argument is, so I’d need you to provide context.
  
  I’m just trying to understand how irrational or aggressive Lemmy is towards women.
  
  Thank you for describing the bear vs man thing to me. So it was basically a question posted on social media, and then the reactions to the question (and maybe others’ comments) was divisive?
  
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  - AA5B@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨week⁩ ago
    
    I’m just trying to understand how irrational or aggressive Lemmy is towards women.
    
    While I also don’t know:
    
    Lemmy tends to be geeky. While I don’t know the stats, I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s very male dominated
    
    different Lemmy servers have different social tendencies. If there are some worth not federating because of toxicity, it’s likely some of that toxicity makes women uncomfortable
    
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  - SolOrion@sh.itjust.works ⁨1⁩ ⁨week⁩ ago
    Since I have no clue what argument you’re talking about I definitely can’t provide context.
    
    I think maybe we’re all confused lmao.
    
    But yeah, you summed up the original context pretty well. A lot of people, primarily women, basically pointed and said “see how much women don’t trust the average man.” A lot of men pointed at it and said, “see how much women hate men.” And it was a whole gender argument for awhile. I just sort of thought it was all around sad and depressing. I got very tired of hearing about the whole thing personally.
    
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wesker@lemmy.sdf.org ⁨1⁩ ⁨week⁩ ago
Lemmy isn’t safe for anyone, no matter their gender.

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- protist@mander.xyz ⁨1⁩ ⁨week⁩ ago
  Every time I open Lemmy, I’m incredibly fearful of what pearl-clutching material is going to be thrust in my face, so I come back over and over
  
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  - wesker@lemmy.sdf.org ⁨1⁩ ⁨week⁩ ago
    It’s also full of unapologetic Linux users.
    
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- ArcaneSlime@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨1⁩ ⁨week⁩ ago
  
  Is internet
  
  Not safe
  
  Come to my old neighborhood if you want to find out what “not safe” is, none of my friends have ever been stabbed on lemmy, three of my friends have been stabbed around the neighborhood, and two robbed at gunpoint. The internet can’t hurt you.
  
  I know what you mean, but stuff like this always sounds so strange to me after living in actual dangerous places lol.
  
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- lastunusedusername2@sh.itjust.works ⁨1⁩ ⁨week⁩ ago
  We did it! 🎆
  
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rabber@lemmy.ca ⁨1⁩ ⁨week⁩ ago
A question that put further division between men and women. I fuckin hated reading these debates

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