Am I the only one who feels uncomfortable about people making such big deal out of whether they're "black" or "white"?

Submitted ⁨⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago⁩ by ⁨Social_Discussion@lemm.ee⁩ to ⁨[deleted]⁩

Hey there, I was wondering if I’m the only one who feels like this or not.

So I grew up thinking that we people all look different and never had a concept of something such as “white” and “black” people.

But since I got in touch with American culture I saw in the last years that a lot of people make such a big thing out of whether someone is “black” or “white” and what their ethnicity is.

It feels like it’s to the point where they make this define their core identity as if it’s very relevant how people look and how bright/dark their skin is as if this changes their personality.

It’s like so many of these people constantly bring this up to the point where it’s brainwashing and they literally even use racial slur as slang that was used in the past to devalue and enslave people based on their skin tone.

Since I experienced this it made me very uncomfortable since I never had this concept before and now I constantly have to obsessively think about it and feel like it’s manipulating me and these people still bring it up all the time.

I think this is driving me insane cause I never would think about humans so strongly because of their skin or something since it simply isn’t relevant and it just feels wrong but I can’t escape it since so many people continue to make such a big deal out of it.

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yesman@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
The first half of your comment is an acknowledgement that you don’t understand American culture and the second half is you casting declarative judgement upon it.

I don’t know which one of your minds to respond to.

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- BearOfaTime@lemm.ee ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  Both.
  
  He’s an outside observer, and spot on.
  
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- Social_Discussion@lemm.ee ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
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  - themeatbridge@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    I wouldn’t say it’s “good” but it is what is. Humans connect with each other through shared experiences. Growing up black in America creates a unique cross section of obligate life events. Regardless of your culture or environment, there are things that connect you to other black Americans. Some black people prefer to engage with that identity, others prefer to ignore or actively avoid it. But either way, it’s a choice that defines a significant part of their personality.
    
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  - TheDoozer@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    The reality is because of the lived experiences of people based on the color of their skin, people are different based on skin color. You’re right that it’s a stupid reason to think differently of people, but if people had been mistreated for many generations based on the color of their hair, and there was still a good chunk of people that something so arbitrary was somehow important, then you would want to approach a person with that hair color with understanding of that history and current struggle.
    
    So why does it matter? Because 100 years ago, their great-great-grandparents had any wealth they managed to build up taken from them, 70 years ago their great-grandparents were kept boxed into separate, substandard areas, and 50 years ago their grandparents were kept from being able to buy homes outside low-income, substandard housing areas, and 30 years ago their parents were told it was their fault for growing up in crime-filled, poor areas with under-funded schools. And the whole time police have continuously treated them as that same substandard, poor, likely-criminal, so they have disproportionately been put in jail or grown up with one parent in jail. This obviously doesn’t apply to everyone, but it’s enough to lead people to treat them differently, either because they presume (until otherwise established) that they are poor, poorly educated, and likely criminal (by basically racist assholes) or with a certain amount of respect for their presumed struggles.
    
    Taking it to an extreme, if a person comes across a very old person with a number tattooed in block letters on their forearm, they will respond one of two ways: with respect and concern for their presumed struggles and trauma, or with irrational hatred (by neo-nazis). Judging or “separating” a person for a barely noticeable tattoo that they didn’t even put on themselves may seem arbitrary, but only if you ignore the entire history that makes them different.
    
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  - dream_weasel@sh.itjust.works ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    Good? I don’t know that you have to judge it as good, but it’s easy to understand WHY and also that is serves a purpose in the US it may not serve other places.
    
    People naturally separate into like groups as a matter of being fundamentally tribal, even though these are barriers we generally try to break down. The point though is that in the US there is often a cultural difference when splitting between white or black, just like there’s a cultural difference for “grows payot sideburns”, “dresses flamboyantly or effeminately as a man”, “speaks Spanish at home”, etc, etc. Sure, people are just people and we don’t need to point out differences maliciously, but we ARE different and those are often things we like to celebrate. At the root, we want our differences to be a positive not a negative, but by and large we aren’t changing our cultures anymore to blend into one big homogeneous, colorless group.
    
    In most of Europe, black and white (or brown or purple or whatever) isn’t a meaningful cultural distinction. In the US it is. Now whether or not we should police language or even whether or not the situation is sometimes uncomfortable… those are different topics altogether.
    
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  - TranquilTurbulence@lemmy.zip ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    I really thought you weren’t American, because of the way you see the situation. I’m looking at that dumpster fire from the outside, and can’t help but think about many of the same questions you seem to have. Sounds like you might have grown up in a multicultural environment, where modern hate media and polarization sounds completely alien to you.
    
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scarabic@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
Answer: you’re white, right? Few people who experience growing up black in America come away saying “what’s the big deal about race, anyway?”

If you want to know what the big deal is with being black, there’s wonderful tradition in American literature of telling you all about it. Pick up a copy of Black Boy by Richard Wright for a place to start.

Why are people making more of a thing out of it than they were 10 years ago? Well, my personal view is that the whole “just don’t talk about it and it will go away” has not worked. Life outcomes for white and black people are statistically quite different and it’s due to more than just talking about race. So I think people are getting sick of being quiet about something that clearly matters, and are talking about it openly. Others are responding by saying that talking about it is the entire problem and is, itself, racist. This is about the dumbest shit ever IMHO but some people are just really sick of having to hear about it and as a sheltered white person you have little personal reason to care. That is unless you care about other people.

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- grue@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  In other words, being able to choose to disregard the concept of race is itself an expression of privilege.
  
  In a perfect world where everybody had that attitude, it would be the right attitude to have. But as long as some people continue to not only regard it but also use it as a tool to discriminate and oppress, their victims do not have a choice but to regard it also. To tell minorities they shouldn’t care about race is to deny them the means to describe how they’ve been wronged.
  
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  - scarabic@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    Exactly. Very well said. And with all respect to Mr. Freeman, he is rich and famous and enjoys a certain level of privilege in that.
    
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- spujb@lemmy.cafe ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  I would be genuinely interested to see what Freeman now thinks of that 16 (or more?) year old clip. While I don’t in any way question his experience or opinion, I think in some way that mindset was very much a (perhaps necessary) product of its time where color-blindness was considered to be the whole picture rather than a smaller bandaid solution of limited efficacy in the context of a holistic healing process.
  
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  - scarabic@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    Obviously he has had an extensive career making films that talk about race, so it’s contradictory on the face of it for him to say “stop talking about it.” Okay, dude! Stop making films that talk about it then!
    
    Yeah. It was an off the cuff remark and right before it he commented on Black History month as limiting black people’s history to just one month a year, which is plainly stupid. Are we offended that Veterans Day bans all appreciation of service folk the other 364 days a year? No.
    
    He is rich and famous and would love to not have the “black actor” label applied to him but again, an extemporaneous comment by a celebrity does not make a thorough analysis that works for everyone.
    
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spujb@lemmy.cafe ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
You are arriving at the same conclusions as Critical Race Theory in America, just from a clearly outsider’s perspective.

Your uncomfortable feelings quite directly align with the truth that “race” is not a historical or natural human element, but rather an entirely subjective construct built and enforced by white supremacists in the 1500s and perpetuated through today.

However, systemic issues as deeply embedded as white supremacy cannot be addressed without systemic solutions. One such solution is solidarity. People of color, especially in a system as deeply entrenched in racism as America’s, will often need to rely on one another in order to overcome racial barriers. Indigenous, Black, Asian, Latine, mixed, etc. folk do not have the same privilege as White folk do as individuals or as minority groups, and so they strategically find ways to create spaces and communities that prioritize the needs of themselves and their neighbors. It’s kind of like the queer community. If gay people had never been demonized, sure! There would be no need for careful interrogations of identity and sexuality. But the fact is that LGBTQ+ people and POC have both been abused and mistreated for centuries. The process of healing those wounds requires a huge degree of intentional community and commitment to understanding marginalized identities.

I am guessing that perhaps 80% of the “making a big thing” of race you see is this forging of community in solidarity. Now, racism is of course still a thing, so when you do see racial language that is centered around putting down, limiting, or otherwise devaluing lives based on race, feel free to call it the fuck out and feel as uncomfortable as you like. But! If you even see a glimmer of mutual aid, solidarity, and a recognition and redressing of historical denigration of non-white life, take a moment to pause and listen. For centuries race has been exclusively under the thumb of white individuals, so it might be time to let people of color have a moment at the reigns as we move towards healing.

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zoostation@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
If you’re one color and you’re living in a culture where you’re surrounded by a majority of people of a different color who don’t treat you as one of them, then you’re going to identify more with the community of your own color.

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- Social_Discussion@lemm.ee ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  There isn’t such thing as “different color” with human skin. We all have different shades and tones by nature. People naturally look different. Your skin even changes depending how much you’re in the sun and it doesn’t make them a different person. This is really not hard to see
  
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  - Mighty@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    Yeah it’s not about that. It’s about culture, history, systemic racism, discrimination, found family, community…
    
    This “I don’t see colour” argument is an old blind argument that ignores all of the above.
    
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  - Cruxifux@feddit.nl ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    Yeah but that’s not how the majority of racists see it. If you aren’t pure white they don’t like you. Period.
    
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Sylaran@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
Ok, I’ll bite. Just because you grew up not having to consider the color of your skin doesn’t mean other people had that same privilege. I wish I could say that ethnicity doesn’t matter, but people here will absolutely treat you differently because of race, whether it makes sense or not. The fact is that “not seeing race” is something you only have the privilege of when you are not in the minority race. Interestingly enough, while I am a very clearly black man, my mixed half sister (32) has faced more direct racism than me, starting from as early as second grade. Her also mixed daughter (15) also gets called the n word at school regularly. You’re right that it shouldn’t matter but it does to enough people that it can’t just be ignored.

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- Social_Discussion@lemm.ee ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  That’s why we need to stop doing it. Maybe it’s too hard to do idk but it makes me feel uncomfortable when people see me or others as a color.
  
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  - spujb@lemmy.cafe ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    
    Maybe it’s too hard to do
    
    Yes, that’s exactly it. In a world where a man can wrongfully accuse Haitian migrants, people of color, of eating pets and not only get away with it but be elected president, it is too hard. I under that it’s uncomfortable but asking people to try to pretend race doesn’t matter is like asking telling a runner to keep running on a broken leg. When injuries are really bad you have to acknowledge the damage, sometimes for a long while, before it heals away.
    
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preach224@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
are you white, by chance? i find that there’s a strong correlation between not understanding and caucasity - as a middle-aged white man myself, it was a blind spot for me, at least.

but also there’s a shitload of american culture that’s downright vicious to people who aren’t white, so having a community that shared something (in this case, skin colour vis-a-vis oppressive history/current events) is a powerful draw that i absolutely understand.

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- Social_Discussion@lemm.ee ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  See that’s literally what I mean what upsets me. It doesn’t matter what my skin looks like, it changes nothing about me as a person. There isn’t even “white” or “black” skin. I’ve never seen people with actual white or black skin. I would say our skin is more pinkish/brown and changes in brightness/tones if anything. But why would you even make a thing about it? It seems weird and isn’t relevant
  
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  - ccunning@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    
    It doesn’t matter what my skin looks like
    
    …to you. Other people in this world absolutely will judge based on the color of your skin.
    
    it changes nothing about me as a person
    
    It’s extremely naive to believe living your life being judged by others based on your appearance wouldn’t change you.
    
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- BearOfaTime@lemm.ee ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  Wow, nice assumption.
  
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  - Sylaran@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    Entirely depends on who the majority is. Racism is just tribalism.
    
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  - Social_Discussion@lemm.ee ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    Exactly what I’m thinking. Imo this whole concept of “white” and “black” people doesn’t make sense and is just an excuse for racism and hate
    
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  - dream_weasel@sh.itjust.works ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    Yes, those groups are all typically considered white by pigmentation except the ones that are Indian brown, including light skinned romani people. Just like light skinned gay people would be generally considered white, or ethnic Jews who are light complected.
    
    The boundary between black (or brown, yellow, red, purple, or green) and white is not black and white, but the social implications can be pretty cut and dry if you find yourself strongly in one category or another in many parts of the world.
    
    Trying to assign someone as “Asian” is a somewhat more difficult task with more nuance, skin color though is pretty cut and dry.
    
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AbouBenAdhem@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
There are three distinct concepts I think you’re confusing:

The idea of biological races. Yeah, a given culture’s definition of “race” is historically contingent and biologically incoherent. I think you get that and are assuming that’s all there is to it.

Race as a correlative of ethnicity. There are some ethnicities whose members tend to have darker skin colors, and people tend to conflate skin color and ethnicity. Ethnicity (as a set of cultural institutions) is meaningful to some people, and some of them interpret a disregard for “race” as a disregard for their ethnicity, or as an attempt to suppress ethnic identity.

Race as a social construct. When the above ideas permeate a society, people with different skin colors experience systemically different treatment—even in the absence of actual biological or ethnic distinctions. So people with similar skin colors can be grouped on the basis of those shared experiences, and the different behaviors resulting from those experiences feed back into the society’s conceptions of biological race and ethnicity. And it doesn’t suffice to counteract such social constructs by ignoring them—social behavior is taken for granted unless people make a conscious effort to reevaluate it.
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lurch@sh.itjust.works ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
No, you’re not the only one. It makes me feel uncomfortable as well, especially if it’s white people making a huge deal about being white or others not being white. That’s creepy AF, as this has been used historically as a really bad reason/excuse to mistreat others.

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- Social_Discussion@lemm.ee ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  Yes I agree. But why can’t we stop calling people “white people” in the first place? Why can’t we just acknowledge each other as people/human beings?
  
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  - Mighty@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    Because we have to acknowledge the systemic privilege of white people. I’m so very white. I have my problems and my concerns, but none of them are for my looks. Black people do not have that luxury.
    
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TokenEffort@sh.itjust.works ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
You’re not. I’m black and being a lemmy user is a bigger part of who I am than my skin color. I hate the othering and division.

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tiefling@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
America is literally founded on racism. First white settlers came and gave smallpox to anyone who looked different than them. Then they imported dark skinned people and made them literal slaves. Half the country fought a war over the right to keep slaves. There was even a period of time when Italians weren’t considered white as a means to discriminate.

There is a lot more context than just skin tone, and unfortunately the hatred for anyone who isn’t white was never curb stomped out

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- SomeAmateur@sh.itjust.works ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  
  gave smallpox to anyone who looked different than them
  
  It’s not like they had a choice in who did/didn’t get it.
  
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  - spujb@lemmy.cafe ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    Nope. Sadly.
    
    “We gave them two blankets and a handkerchief out of the smallpox hospital,” Captain William Trent, a militia captain, wrote in his journal. “I hope it will have the desired effect.”
    
    www.umass.edu/legal/derrico/…/lord_jeff.html allthatsinteresting.com/smallpox-blankets
    
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- Social_Discussion@lemm.ee ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  True, many parts about humans is really sad
  
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PP_BOY_@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
Post-Occupy American media social discussion has focused on nothing but race/race relations for the past ~15 years. Our 0.01%er overlords know its an immutable difference between people and use it to drive a wedge between us in the name of “progress.”

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chuckleslord@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
I’m not sure what you’re asking here. Are you asking why people bring up being black or make it a part of their identity? Being black in America is a part of their every day lived experience. At no point will society let them forget they are black and just let them be themselves. If not outright discrimination, then they’ll experience people making assumptions about them based solely on the color of their skin. Assuming they’re poor, uneducated, unintelligent, untrustworthy, or dangerous. So, since they can’t escape the label anyways, they embrace it in order to find community and to heal. Like one might do if they were a part of the LGBTQ+ community.

Are you asking why black people have stereotypes about white people? The same reason you have stereotypes about anything. Humans are pattern recognizing machines, often to our own detriment.

Are you asking why black people might treat white people with disdain or fear? It’s because the most blatant discrimination towards any out-group will always come from the most insulated in-group. As a result, they can’t blindly trust that white people will treat them with dignity or respect.

Are you asking how we end racism or to get more people to think like you (colorblind)? That requires one, ending systemic oppression of black people (if you think this step is done, then you need to do you some learning). Two, educating people on the history of black people in America, both their contributions and their struggles, so that there’s a solid understanding and empathy built up. Three, wait several generations so that no one has negative, undeserved biases against black people OR create a culture where people can be called out on their racist actions without fear of retribution or retaliation.

This is really difficult to grasp, especially if you’ve never experienced direct discrimination and think that is just the actions of individuals that are the issue. As a white man with a black partner, it took me YEARS to really breakdown all the negative assumptions that society instilled in me without me even realizing. Even the “I treat everyone the same, regardless of their skin color” thought is bad, because it means you’re unwilling to listen when people tell you they’re being harmed because of their skin color. Especially if it’s you doing the harm.

You can’t start by being mad at the discriminated for telling you they’re being discriminated against. You need to listen to them with empathy and compassion, and realize also that they don’t really need to teach you about this stuff, you need to be inquisitive and want to learn.

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Keeponstalin@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
Whiteness is an exclusionary concept used to create an ‘ingroup’ and ‘outgroup’. Hasan Piker gives a great breakdown of it here.

Historically, it comes from a justification of chattel slavery. Painting ‘whiteness’ as purity and superior and ‘blackness’ as inferior and subservient. Leeja Miller gives a great analysis about how this has influenced Eugenics in American history (which inspired the ideology of the Nazis) which is still practiced to this day in certain circumstances.

It’s long, but Knowing Better gives an extremely detailed history of neoslavery in American history. To understand why ‘whiteness’ is still so prevalent in America in modern day, it’s important to understand the history of systemic racism and how it persists to this day.

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hmonkey@lemy.lol ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
I agree 100%. The answer is that people are dumb and like tribalism so they keep it going. Anyone that thinks perpetuating division will result in progress is an idiot, and frankly identity politics are a distraction from real issues like poverty

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- Sylaran@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  Poverty is a real issue in America that is also often influenced by race. Race is a real issue in itself that has many different facets.
  
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  - hmonkey@lemy.lol ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    Racism is a real issue, race is made up and needs to go away
    
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- Social_Discussion@lemm.ee ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  Great that someone can relate!
  
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bear@lemmynsfw.com ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
You’re right. Identity politics is itself what fractures the civil polity, working against creating real opportunities for ending marginalization, and perpetuating that marginalization through affirmations of difference.

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Sergio@slrpnk.net ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
You should read up on the history of racism in the US. A lot of places it isn’t talked about, because we are the land of freedom. /irony

en.wikipedia.org/…/Racism_in_the_United_States

en.wikipedia.org/…/A_People's_History_of_the_Unit…
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- spujb@lemmy.cafe ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  “That book will knock you on your ass.”
  
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SplooshArmstrong@lemmynsfw.com ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
Though not “black” and “white”, I know that some black people do not like being considered African American. There is a difference between someone who has family come over through slave trade, and someone who came to America willingly from Africa.

I can understand why they might feel that way, they had family sold into slavery by others in their countries. They’ve lived on unable to express themselves for generations, and are culturally different from people from their ancestors homelands.

So being black and calling them African American may not acknowledge what they see as clear differences between the two.

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- Social_Discussion@lemm.ee ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  This reminds me of this interview of Elon Musk and Don Lemmon where I think Elon is hitting the nail on the head. And the irony being Elon is more African American than Don Lemon since Elon actually is African and Don just is American.
  
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RegalPotoo@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
I don’t have a good answer to your question, but to me “white” as an ethnicity makes about as much sense as “Christian” does as a religious description - they both cover such a wide range of backgrounds and beliefs to be essentially useless. Do a Catholic, a baptist and a modern evangelical actually believe the same things beyond how they frame those beliefs?

To my mind, same goes for ethnicity - “white” can mean anything from the baltics to western Europe to north America, and to my mind, is kinda racist. It lumps people from as diverse places as Ireland and Russia together purely based on appearances. I get “black” as a self-selected descriptor of people who do have a big cultural touch-point in common - our ancestors were enslaved, brought here against our will, and we still feel the impacts of that even if our ancestors themselves were from a wide background.

I guess “white” is an easy antonym to “black”, but then that still comes back to a racist tint - “we are white because we aren’t Them” - and lumps in people who have nothing to do with the lasting impact of slavery in the US into this “oppressor vs oppressed” false dichotomy.

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