Is "Red Storm Rising" by Tom Clancy considered a good book?

Submitted ⁨⁨5⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago⁩ by ⁨neidu3@sh.itjust.works⁩ to ⁨[deleted]⁩

OK, so I finished this a while back, and despite it appealing to a lot of my interests, I honestly found it kind of meh.

I really enjoyed the realistic military/tactical aspect of it all, as that part is right up my alley, but… I did not care about the character, the plot seemed hollow, and it seems like some things that could have been explored further were simply ignored.

For example, in the beginning these guys blow up a refinery. There are vague descriptions as to why, but after this it is practically not me ntioned again.

The only thing this book has going for it, in my opinion, is that military nerds like me enjoy the detailed writing about the different types of hardware involved in the book.

So, since I am by no means a literary connoseur, I’m curious about how this book is percieved by others.

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showmeyourkizinti@startrek.website ⁨5⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
My second favourite crazy conspiracy theory is that Tom Clancy didn’t really exist and that he was the front man for the CIA’s public relations office. Red Storm especially leads this as the whole novel reads like someone took a high level war game and tried to make a novelisation out of it.

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- Lauchs@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  I’m pretty sure I remember reading that Clancy and a buddy essentially wargamed the conflict and wrote out the results.
  
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  - showmeyourkizinti@startrek.website ⁨5⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    Yeah his buddies from DOD’s PR and from the NSA. /s Yeah I’d believe that the whole novel really reminded me of a YouTube of some war games.
    
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Lauchs@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
I think it was mostly meant as military nerd porn.

Like, the guys who blow up the refinery are only important in asmuch as they create the need for a conflict with the West. Some oppressed group pulls off something wild but doesn’t have the men/material to do anything major afterwards (which is how a lot of terrorism goes.)

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ExtraMedicated@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
I once chose to read a Tom Clancy book over the summer for a book report in the following semester (I enjoyed those Rainbow Six games from the 90’s, so the books would probably be cool too right?). I stood up there in class and was like “I’m gonna be honest, I couldn’t bring myself to read more than half of this.” And the teacher was like, “I don’t blame you.”

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- Rogue@feddit.uk ⁨5⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  I gave up on Rainbow Six as well. I didn’t really understand the plot.
  
  Apparently I was meant to be on the side of Team America: World Police and not sympathise with the environmentalists trying to save the world from corruption and climate change.
  
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- slazer2au@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  Yea, r6 was not what I was expecting.
  
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DontMakeMoreBabies@lemm.ee ⁨5⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
I recall liking it, but I read it in like the 5th grade so my standards were low (before that I’d been reading my mom’s terrible ‘caterer turned detective’ novels).

I enjoyed Clancy for a long time after that but at this point I aim more towards militaristic speculative fiction.

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- jrubal1462@mander.xyz ⁨5⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  Similar to my experience. I enjoyed reading but hated the process of finishing a book, finding a new, one, and getting started again. T. Clancy books were my go-to because they were interesting enough and WAAAY longer than they had to be so I could just keep on reading.
  
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- neidu3@sh.itjust.works ⁨5⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  RSR is the only Clancy book I’ve read. Is it comparable to his other books?
  
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  - DontMakeMoreBabies@lemm.ee ⁨5⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    I think I remember liking Rainbow Six around the same time and I liked his books until he started tag teaming with other authors which was probably around 2000?
    
    Based on that I imagine his books from 1986-2000 are “similar” enough.
    
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  - dustyData@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    Hunt for red October is far more thrilling if not as realistic. The characters are far more unique and interesting, though jack Ryan and anything navy/CIA is just propaganda. At least it is fun to read propaganda.
    
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  - shalafi@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    The other books are far more plot and character focused, less exacting military stuff. If you like RSR, you might like the following books even more. It’s an outlier, but not too far, from his other books.
    
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- Mothra@mander.xyz ⁨5⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  Caterer turned detective?
  
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  - DontMakeMoreBabies@lemm.ee ⁨5⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    Dianne Mott Davidson’s books.
    
    Don’t get me wrong I loved the as a kid and it was a nice way to transition to “adult” books but not really my speed anymore.
    
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boatswain@infosec.pub ⁨5⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
I mean, it’s Tom Clancy. It’s a fun read, like Dan Brown or Brandon Sanderson, but it’s not literature or anything.

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- Corkyskog@sh.itjust.works ⁨5⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  First in what way is Sanderson similar to Clancy? Sanderson books are massive tomes of epic fantasy. In what way is it not “literature”? Or do you just consider only non-fiction “literature”
  
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  - boatswain@infosec.pub ⁨5⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    They’re both mass-market pulp that are entertaining to read. There’s plenty of sci-fi and fantasy that’s literature: Ursula LeGuin, Tolkien, Gene Wolfe, NK Jemisin, Vonnegut… the list goes on.
    
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Zonetrooper@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
It’s not a great classical literature, for sure. The characters are almost entirely flat and forgettable, and even the handful that do grow (the young Soviet commander, the US destroyer captain) barely do so. Their experiences never almost never inform their later actions.

But among the techno-thriller/war-simulator genre, I found it more compelling than several more recent attempts (Ghost Fleet, Nuclear War: A Scenario, etc). Many of those seem to go out of their way to bend the plot to produce the author’s intended point, and while RSR wasn’t exactly innocent in that regard, I found it far less guilty than others - largely because Clancy was holding to the known or theorized-near-future capabilities.

Where I actually find it fascinating is how, in retrospect, we can see the biases of the era influencing how Clancy makes certain predictions:

The Soviets place immense importance on taking Iceland to permit a “second Battle of the Atlantic” against US carrier groups. In retrospect, we know the Soviet Navy had no interest in this and intended to act as a cordon around northern Europe; specifically the Soviet SSBN bastions.

While Clancy did loosely predict the nature, role, and value of Stealth aircraft, the design and air-to-air role he describes them in is actually too advanced for the 1980s setting. Essentially, Clancy bought the rumors, which were wrong.

Land attack helicopters with ATGMs play relatively little role in the ground fighting. This was because the current generation (namely the AH-64) had just been introduced; their full capabilities and impact were not yet publicly available.

These mistakes, although understandable, provide an interesting insight into what the American defense establishment was thinking about in the early 80s.
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Corkyskog@sh.itjust.works ⁨5⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
Instead of reading Clancy read Matthew Reilly. I suggest you start with Ice Station. It’s got everything you need, French Baddies, Spaceships, Hovercraft, and even killer Killer whales!

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socsa@piefed.social ⁨5⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
Yes, you have pretty much perfectly described why most Tom Clancy books have pretty niche appeal. The literary value is all in the wall researched military need stuff, and weirdly plausible hypothetical geopolitics

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FourPacketsOfPeanuts@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
Have also read it, I found most of it quite forgettable. Maybe when it was written ('86) it seemed much more connected to a real world possibility so early readers filled in the gaps with real life happenings / politicians etc.

I also didn’t find its handing of nuclear threat particularly convincing.

I’ve not thought about it for years, but perhaps these happenings in Ukraine have shown the whole dynamic wasn’t (isn’t) as implausible as I thought.

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- Valmond@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  I read it around 1990 and it was an ok thriller, with a somewhat unique play (world war and all) or so I felt back then. Doesn’t really remember anything noteworthy except the russkies would have won if they hadn’t been like unlucky IIRC (some spy stepping out in the street in front of a car, having like the attack plans or something). The people were totally forgettable.
  
  So yeah, a nice read back then but that’s about it.
  
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- neidu3@sh.itjust.works ⁨5⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  Yeah, the time period in which it was released definitely plays a part. I just find that anything in the book that isn’t geekery about army/navy to be tacked on. Such as the Iceland plot with that woman who’s name I cannot care enough about to remember. “Yes, a book probably needs a subplot like that.”
  
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DarkNightoftheSoul@mander.xyz ⁨5⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
Relax: Calm down, chill bro.

you’ll be pleased to know yours is a very reasonable opinion to have and you’re right for having it, too.

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mlfh@lemmy.sdf.org ⁨5⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
The thing I remember most about this book is the heroic American Mary Sue rescuing an Icelandic damsel in distress from a traumatic sexual assault by Soviet soldiers, and then immediately afterwards she falls in love with him and they have sex in a hot spring or something. Standard conservative male military-nerd wish-fulfillment pulp fantasy written by a guy whose main protagonists are all thinly-veiled self-insertions.

That said, as a fellow nerd, I love it when Clancy tells me all the little details about a submarine, and it’s a fun read. But I wouldn’t call it good.

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HK65@sopuli.xyz ⁨5⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
Yeah, lol no it isn’t, the whole submarine plot has been forced into it because Clancy can’t not write about submarines.

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Curious_Canid@lemmy.ca ⁨5⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
I don’t think it is generally considered a good book, but I’m sure it depends on who you ask. I thought it had some interesting ideas, but was pretty weak overall.

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Adderbox76@lemmy.ca ⁨5⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
Similarly related, I remember reading The Hunt for Red October and enjoying it. But I can’t decide if I actually enjoyed it, or if I’m transposing a memory from my enjoyment of the film to my enjoyment of the book. I’m afraid to re-read it and find out, because I haven’t been a fan of much else that he’s written so I suspect I know the answer.

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DragonTypeWyvern@midwest.social ⁨5⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
Good is relative. Finnegan’s Wake is a masterpiece, and it’s also deliberately obscure to the point you either need an education matching Joyce’s or a reading companion.

Is that good?

Is it bad if it is not approachable? Is it good if it is?

Red Storm Rising is one of the best modern military fictions according to a lot of fans of the genre, but that’s doesn’t mean you have to like it. I’ve got some straight up gunporn series I read when I’m in a mood for reading about automatic shotguns firing explosive shells into vampires, but I wouldn’t call them good at anything but that and objectifying women.

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raynethackery@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
I read it in my 20s and liked it well enough. It isn’t great literature but it was a fun read.

I read it again in the last few years, I’m now in my fifties, and I had to skip the Iceland parts with the Air Force Lieutenant and the woman. My god, Clancy must have been an insufferable misogynist.

Someone should rewrite the book and remove or change that part.

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Kusimulkku@lemm.ee ⁨5⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
I couldn’t finish it because it was both so over the top American (I’m not American so it feels different) but also because at times it was weirdly boring.

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Psaldorn@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
I read it a long time ago and enjoyed it. Read it again last year and was kind of disappointed. The ending is so incredibly blunt.

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njm1314@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
I can’t say I remember that one particularly well, I just remember I didn’t much enjoy it. Tom Clancy has a few books that are pretty fun to read and even more books that are just blah at best.

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