5 or 6Ghz backhaul on the mesh?
Should I buy consumer or small business hardware?
Recommended brand(s)?
Comment on Lemmings, please give us your info dump.
MystikIncarnate@lemmy.ca 1 day ago
Nobody wants my info dump. I know way too much about networking and computers. The topics are massively deep, like iceberg levels of deep. One for each topic.
I would lecture for an entire day on the nuance and considerations of picking a Wi-Fi channel, or you can ignore me and just hit “auto” which may or may not take some, or all, of my considerations into account when selecting a channel.
If anyone is keen to hear some generally good advice about home networking, here’s my elevator speech:
Wire when you can, wireless when you have to. Wi-Fi is shared and half duplex, every wired connection is exclusive to the device and full duplex. If you can’t Ethernet, use MoCA, or powerline (depending on what internal power structures you have, this can be excellent or unusable, keep your receipts). Mesh is best with a dedicated backhaul, better with a wired backhaul. Demand it from any system you consider. The latest and greatest Wi-Fi technology probably won’t fix whatever problem you’re having, it will only temporarily reduce the symptoms and you won’t notice it for a while. Be weary about upgrading and ask yourself why you require the upgrade. Newer wireless won’t fix bad signal, or dropouts.
For everything else, Google. That’s how I find most of the information I know.
Good luck.
I’ll be around in case anyone has questions. No promises on when I’ll be able to reply tho.
W98BSoD@lemmy.dbzer0.com 23 hours ago
MystikIncarnate@lemmy.ca 21 hours ago
High end consumer aka prosumer, which is only really one brand, ubiquiti. Specifically their unifi stuff.
Or used mid range business stuff, Cisco, Aruba, juniper. The pinch here is that you usually need specialized knowledge to configure this class of device. I’ve also used Cisco, watchguard, Fortinet, Sophos, sonicwall, and probably others for firewalls. I prefer Sonicwall for some very specific reasons about how they structure their configuration, but for anyone who isn’t a certified sonicwall tech, I’d point at Sophos. Their stuff seems to be a fair balance of configurability and user friendliness. If you’re instant on new business stuff and you have the money for it, Sophos for the firewall, Aruba instanton for switching and Wi-Fi.
The benefit to unifi is user friendliness and a unified control console. If you’re not an IT professional or a similar technical job, unifi will provide plenty of what you need and leave out the unnecessary knobs that needs like me want to see.
Be prepared to spend several hundred on the networking if you’re going to do it right, there are some places you can trim some costs, but before you nope it from sticker shock, consider how much you spend per year on Internet service, and then consider how much the router/firewall + switch + access points are in comparison… And those are things you don’t need to buy every year.
asteriskeverything@lemmy.world 19 hours ago
Dude these type of replies are what had made reddit such a great time sink, even random browsing you may find something incredible in the comments. Thank you
MystikIncarnate@lemmy.ca 18 hours ago
Thanks. I’ve been on hiatus for a bit. I’m around.
I still won’t go back to that place either way
grandma@sh.itjust.works 3 hours ago
If you can’t run cables through your walls you could look into fiber that hides in plain sight youtu.be/Z2FbzCyiNr4
Grail@multiverse.soulism.net 20 hours ago
Tell Me everything you want about MAC addresses
MystikIncarnate@lemmy.ca 20 hours ago
Is this a kink?
The first six hexadecimal digits of the Mac address are referred to as the oui, or organizationally unique identifier. They are supposed to all be registered, but with modern systems, mac address randomization is common, so the Mac address in use can be little better than nonsense.
I have a theory that some of the more budget oriented manufacturers (think Ali express), just don’t bother using a registered mac address at all.
This all makes my job harder as a network admin, I usually need to look up what a device is by mac address to help identify what it is and what it’s doing. I need to make sure everything is on the right network, and I can’t do that if I don’t know what anything is.
The last six hexadecimal digits of the Mac are simply to uniquely identify the interface that the Mac is burned into. This also means that any systems with multiple network ports, have different mac address on each port. Some things are exempt, like network switches, but for the most part, every interface has, or is supposed to have, a unique mac address.
Also, the mac isn’t hex, it’s binary. Hex is just how we’ve decided to present it to users. The switches, routers, and interfaces don’t work with the hex, only the binary. Same for IP addresses, which normal are shown in “dotted decimal notation”, but are just binary. But you didn’t ask about IP.
Did you need me to whisper ouis into your ear and you can guess what company is registered to that oui?
TisI@lemmy.zip 11 hours ago
Nothing sexier than someone who knows what they’re talking about.
Grail@multiverse.soulism.net 19 hours ago
So if you plug the same device into a different network using the same port, it’s the same MAC?
MystikIncarnate@lemmy.ca 18 hours ago
The device mac doesn’t change unless mac randomization is on.
Valmond@lemmy.dbzer0.com 11 hours ago
Fun fact, when I worked for Alstom and programmed their electric substations, they had a 10bit network and proprietary network cards, and the prototypes sometimes had the same MAC address 😁😅
theorangeninja@sopuli.xyz 23 hours ago
Thanks a lot for sharing you experience! I recently saw some people I follow on youtube talk about fibre as an alternative for ethernet cables, do you have an any experience with that?
LurkingLuddite@piefed.social 23 hours ago
Alternative? Sure. Though why?
If ethernet works, you’re just using a more expensive option to go with fiber.
Unless you need something unique about fiber, like distance (which can still be dubious for consumer grade hardware), or a non-electrical based signal (dubious requirement in most cases), then you’re just throwing money at being able to say you use fiber.
RustyNova@lemmy.world 22 hours ago
Additionally, fiber is more fragile than a copper cable. One bad hit with a vacuum cleaner and it’s toast
Janx@piefed.social 21 hours ago
Maybe you shouldn’t vacuum your cables?
I_am_10_squirrels@beehaw.org 23 hours ago
I feel like fiber only makes sense for long runs or extremely high bandwidth needs. For a typical home network, I don’t see any benefits for fiber over ethernet.
MystikIncarnate@lemmy.ca 21 hours ago
Yes. Fiber is great but extremely nuanced. SMF, MMF, UPC, APC, OM3, OM4, OS2… All different parts of just the cabling… Not to mention the connectors, LC, SC… You get the idea.
Everyone I tend to talk to about it seem to think multi-mode is cheaper, and it can be, but in my experience, single mode is usually the better choice and usually not much of a price uplift if you’re buying from a good company. Look at FS.com and do some comparison shopping against them. They make some high quality stuff, and it’s at pretty incredible pricing for what you get, but the equipment can add up fast.
Multi mode can only really carry one connection per fiber and usually needs to be duplexed (two strands per link) while single mode can leverage WDM to carry multiple independent signals on different wavelengths. This can be leveraged for bi-directional single strand links, multiple links that are aggregated into a single connection in hardware (this is how 40Gbit works, it’s actually 4x10G connections on different wavelengths)…
It’s still more costly and requires more specialized equipment and training to work with, compared to copper Ethernet, so it’s pretty uncommon to see in residential or home networks.
YMMV. Good luck.
weimaraner_of_doom@piefed.social 16 hours ago
Fiber is complete overkill for home networking. Also, POE is very nice to have for things like WAPs or cameras.
BartyDeCanter@lemmy.sdf.org 17 hours ago
I set up my house with cat6 when I moved in. The overall setup looks like 10G fiber to the house -> 2.5G capable router -> 2.5G capable NAS running *arr stack. Also off the router is a single cat6 downstairs -> 8 port 1G unmanaged switch, which is connected to my desktop, work dock, parters dock, TV, and backhaul run to the back of house wifi extender. The desktop, both docks and wifi extender are 2.5G capable. This has been extremely reliable. I plan on upgrading the switch to a 10g capable one at some point, and then the router. Since the switch is unmanaged, is there a good way to know when it is the limiting factor and I should update it?
not_so_handsome_jack@sh.itjust.works 23 hours ago
The elevator pitch is wonderful and I’m glad to be following your recommendations already. Wired everything is not practical for me without drilling through the floor, so a mesh router with dedicated backhaul and a wired connection to the downstairs node is working like a charm.
MystikIncarnate@lemmy.ca 20 hours ago
Awesome. That’s good to hear.
I know not everyone can run Ethernet. Whether it’s because you’re in a rental, or you simply don’t have the budget for it, the reason doesn’t matter all that much. There’s plenty of good reasons not to.
Usually mesh nodes have Ethernet on them as well and it just bridges into the LAN. Using that can actually cut down on wireless traffic overall. Maybe something to look at which could help if you have any troubles.
Good luck friend.
chunkystyles@sopuli.xyz 22 hours ago
They mentioned MoCa. If you have cable (like for the tv) you can probably use MoCa. It’s fantastic.
Dlayknee@lemmy.world 16 hours ago
And if you can’t use MoCa - say, bc the cable installers cut all the other coax cords on the house (true story!) - you can also consider powerline adapters to send Ethernet over your electrical wiring. It’s a crapshoot depending on the quality of your wiring but I can usually get at least the same speed as my wifi with it.
not_so_handsome_jack@sh.itjust.works 21 hours ago
Just read up on that, seems very interesting. I don’t think it’s a great option for my setup since there’s only one coax port in the house, but I learned something new today.
pnelego@lemmy.world 7 hours ago
What are the nuances between APs and how they handle choosing a channel? Also, I was told at one point it’s better to “stack” on top of other SSIDs using the same channel than to go one channel higher (assuming there isn’t room higher up in the spectrum).
Thank you for your time and expertise!
Valmond@lemmy.dbzer0.com 11 hours ago
What about the SNMP protocol? And is ARP level 1 or 2?
I love low level network stuff, but nowadays nobody needs that anymore.
yucandu@lemmy.world 21 hours ago
I’ve been switching a lot of my devices to ESP-NOW instead of WiFi so that they can just fart out their data to anyone who can hear it and then go back to sleep, no connecting or handshaking or authenticating or overhead. Should clear up my wifi network I think.
MystikIncarnate@lemmy.ca 20 hours ago
If I’m not mistaken, they still use 2.4 GHz, which is also used by wifi, Bluetooth, ZigBee, a bunch of other stuff… Microwave ovens…
And anything operating on a frequency, regardless of protocol, will interfere with eachother. I think the main benefit for you would be the brief amount of active time, could reduce the airtime being used by the devices.
I hope it works out for you and your wifi works excellently. Just be aware that it could still interfere. Use 5ghz when possible.
Janx@piefed.social 21 hours ago
Sorry, I know there was more, but all wireless is half-duplex!? I never knew…
MystikIncarnate@lemmy.ca 21 hours ago
It’s a single frequency for all people, including those that are on the same or adjacent/overlapping channels. If you ever used walkie talkies, they don’t work so well when more than one person is talking.
Same idea.
Wi-Fi 7 is introducing multi link, which could improve the duplex operation, but it’s far from perfect. Even if you use one channel for download and one for upload, you’re still competing with everyone else on the channel - whether they’re connected to your network or not. They can still interfere with you if you’re on the same channel but different networks.
SlurpingPus@lemmy.world 8 hours ago
Odd that my router has zero problem with seeding torrents, but at a friend’s place, downloads get clobbered whenever anything is uploading.
Doesn’t MIMO help with duplexing? Which was around since 802.11n.
rainwall@piefed.social 17 hours ago
This is always why its generally better to turn your wifi signal power down to a low or middle power as long as all your devices can still connect.
Less range, less overlap, less competition for shared bandwidth between different APs.
notthebees@reddthat.com 9 hours ago
How would I setup MoCA in a house when it has a really large splitter?
ChickenLadyLovesLife@lemmy.world 9 hours ago
Also, don’t use the wifi routers provided by Cocmast. Cocmast uses them to provide their xfinity-branded wifi, so as their customer you are literally sacrificing bandwidth and paying their electric bill. I assume all cable companies do this but Cocmast is the only one I know about for sure.
VivianRixia@piefed.social 22 hours ago
The general rule I’ve read for wifi is to use channels 1,6 and 11 for 2.4 GHz as those do not interfere with each other. So I use a wifi scanner on my phone at the furthest point in my home from the router and check which is the least busy from the surrounding neighbors. Do you think that’s a good technique to use?
For 5GHz, I try to pick between 36,48,149,161 and pick by the same rules as above. I also keep my channel size at 20Mhz for both.
MystikIncarnate@lemmy.ca 20 hours ago
There’s some nuance with 5ghz, let’s talk 2.4 GHz first.
You’ve heard correctly, 1, 6, and 11 are the “non overlapping” channels, if anyone is on, say, channel 9, then everyone on 6 and 11 are going to have a bad time. But this is entirely based on everyone using 20mhz wide channels. Anyone using 40mhz wide channels are just going to fuck up the airspace. 40mhz wide channels basically occupy two of the three non-overlapping channels on 2.4ghz. never use 40mhz wide on 2.4 GHz. IMO, it shouldn’t have ever been an option.
5ghz is a UNII band, and there’s three, technically four or five, main sections of the band that are relevant UNIi 1 is the low end of 5ghz, I don’t have the channel numbers off the top of my head, but I know it ends at or around channel 90 or so? I’m tired and I’ve been ill today, so please forgive me. Some of the specifics are slipping away right now and I don’t have the brain power to cross reference it. You can look all this up anyways.
UNII 1 is pretty typical, very similar to how 2.4 GHz works, just on a different band.
I’ll circle back on UNII 2
UNII 3 is the high part of the band and the only nuance here is that the 5.8 GHz ISM channels overlap with a lot of this, so any consumer electronics like cordless phones that use 5.8 GHz, might cause problems with some of these channels. Use of the ISM band here has been on the decline for a while, so it’s probably not an issue, but something to be mindful of.
UNII 2 is a whole thing. You’ll need to look up what is allowed for your country, but some channels are off limits and this band actually interferes with radar operations, so anything operating UNII 2 channels needs to have radar avoidance built in. That’s pretty much automatic, or it should be. The key take away with these channels is that you need to let the system pick the channel or will use in the band, so that it can change the channel to avoid radar if needed. Setting a static channel on your Wi-Fi in the UNII 2 band might land you in hot water.
Some 5ghz channels can only be used indoors, some can only be used in specific countries, so look it up for your situation. Wikipedia has a comprehensive article on it, and I would encourage you to familiarize yourself with it.
6ghz regulation is starting to settle down but it’s looking to be a bit more open and consistent between countries which would be a nice change.
Also, there are different power restrictions on different channels, don’t worry yourself too much with that since most consumer access points and Wi-Fi routers don’t push enough power to exceed even the lowest restriction.
Feel free to move to 40mhz for 5ghz, there’s a lot more channels and 40mhz wide can really enhance your speeds. Stick to 20 for 2.4 GHz; but don’t feel limited for 5 or 6ghz.
Your methodology is good. But please understand that the graphs are an estimation, a real waterfall examination with an SDR that’s capable of observing the channel would be the only way to really know what’s happening in the airspace. Generally that’s overkill for residential installations. Just bear in mind, those scanner apps will only show other Wi-Fi networks. Non-Wi-Fi interference will not be shown. Don’t hesitate to try a different channel if one isn’t working great for you. Might just be alien interference (in this context, alien means non-Wi-Fi).
VivianRixia@piefed.social 19 hours ago
Thanks for the long reply. I was using 20 for 5GHz for the range as on the other side of my home, the signal is quite weak. So I figure its more stable at 20 than using 40, even if 40 would be faster. Actually reading up on it more, the lower bands would be better in my case as they offer better wall penetration, which I think is my problem. I’m currently set to 161, let me try to swap to 36 and see if my signal improves. And I’ll test it out to 40MHz, might as well go for broke.
MystikIncarnate@lemmy.ca 18 hours ago
The difference between high and low ranges in the 5 GHz band shouldn’t be significant. My understanding of the rule with penetration is that the signal will be attenuated by something that is half of the wavelength in thickness. Which for 5 GHz frequencies with a wavelength between 50 and 60 mm. Anything thicker than 25mm will impact performance. The lower end, channel 36 will be closer to 30mm
5mm isn’t significant enough to worry too much about. Certainly worth testing either way.
By comparison 2.4ghz has a wavelength of ~125mm.
For wall penetration 2.4 GHz is better, but you’ll suffer on speed. I think the phy rate caps out around 150mbps on 20mhz wide channels. I can double check that, but I don’t think it’s far off. I think you could get up to ~300mbps? But I’m pretty sure that was 40mhz wide… So as far as I’m concerned that’s not valid.
Good luck. Test, document it, see what’s what. Remember, the difference between science and fucking around is writing it down.
Denjin@feddit.uk 22 hours ago
Just adding my 2p, when it comes to cabling, unless you have a specific need (or anticipate one) for a specific connection to need more than 1gbps, CAT5e is plenty good enough for 99% of domestic usage. CAT6 maybe a good idea to anticipate future demands going up dramatically on your home network but anything more is just exponentially more expensive overkill.
MystikIncarnate@lemmy.ca 21 hours ago
I always recommend Cat6, mainly because it can carry 10G up to 55m, which is basically your entire house, unless you live in a mansion or something.
10G might work on 5e, but it won’t be reliable.
Even if you’re not planning to go for 10G any time soon, do yourself a favor and run Cat6. In 5 or 10 years when you want 10G for any reason, you can just upgrade the equipment on both ends and it will just work.
The cost difference isn’t significant enough for cat5e to make any sense for new installs.
boonhet@sopuli.xyz 22 hours ago
CAT6 is so cheap you might as well get that by default now. 7/8 is where it gets expensive.
But if you can’t find 6 for a good price, 5e will do everything you need it to.
FrowingFostek@lemmy.world 18 hours ago
It’s okay to message you?
mrbutterscotch@feddit.org 12 hours ago
I’m planning on setting up a NAS, so I will be reading into networking aswell. Hopefully I won’t get to frustrated lol
Swedneck@discuss.tchncs.de 22 hours ago
what i’ve done is simply lower the power of my 2.4GHz network so i have reliable coverage in my apartment, but by the time i’ve walked 2 floors down my phone is utterly unable to even see the network.
super simple way to avoid polluting the local airwaves, though i presume it’s not really something you can do on most standard router interfaces…
wabasso@lemmy.ca 19 hours ago
Yay!
Should I learn iptables or is it more sane to use a front end like ufw?
I have an RPI with dual Ethernet between my modem and consumer router so I don’t have to depend on the obsolete and limited consumer router hardware. I’m using OpenWRT at the moment but curious if you have other recommendations. I like the Luci gui so if I switched to headless Debian or something then I’d still want a luci equivalent.
I’m self hosting with docker and I want to set up a wireguard vpn container that joins a network with a select set of containers. So I’d have containers that are accessible only be actual LAN users and then others that are in this isolated group that only the VPN (i.e. WAN people) can access. I thought that’s what docker was all about! But by default it seems all authenticated VPN peers just get to be on the LAN. Sure, they can’t get at containers on a different docker bridge network, but they get to access the host itself! This is why I asked about iptables above, but it’s daunting. Any ideas on how to achieve “two levels of trust” for self hosted services?
Ajzak@piefed.social 5 hours ago
Would like to ask, is it worth entering networking as a career right now? I’ve been of the belief that it’ll be necessary as long as the internet is around, so certainly within my lifetime, but the current AI bubble and the direction it’s taking is making me think otherwise.