Conservatives: "No. Kill the trans people and put gays in jail. Women belong in the kitchen. "
Liberals: "No 😘 🌈 "
Lemmy: both said no, so they’re the same!
Comment on I'm gonna mute this one
salacious_coaster@infosec.pub 20 hours ago
Working class: “Can we have meaningful reform?” Conservatives: “No.” Liberals: "No 😘 🌈 "
Tja@programming.dev 4 hours ago
deaf_fish@midwest.social 52 minutes ago
You’ve posted a good argument to a discussion that we are not currently having in this thread. You may need to take a little break from Lemmy.
Wolf@lemmy.today 2 hours ago
I feel like this shouldn’t have to be explained, but “Both sides bad” does not equal “Both sides equally bad” or “Both sides the same”
There’s not a leftist on Lemmy who wouldn’t rather be patronized while being stomped on than being cussed at while being murdered.
And yes, I voted. No, it didn’t help. It was moderates who didn’t vote, not leftists. Leftists believe in harm reduction while advocating for harm elimination- the two goals aren’t contradictory. Trump stole the election so it’s all pretty much moot anyway.
By focusing on the fact that Democrats version of bad is better than the Republican version of bad, it only helps to ensure that the Democrats are the best we can hope to achieve. There is nothing wrong in wanting actual good and instead of ‘least bad’.
Tja@programming.dev 1 hour ago
I don’t live in the US so I don’t have first hand experience but both on lemmy and on reddit it was mostly leftists who were spamming “genocide Biden (without mentioning that trump was even worse)”, something about inflation (like it wasn’t a global issue) and other issues where gop is clearly worse. All as a reason to not vote Democrat.
Wolf@lemmy.today 55 minutes ago
How do you know they were leftists? I don’t know where you are from, but it’s been known that bots and foreign powers have been attempting to influence U.S. elections since at least Trumps first term, and let’s be honest it’s extremely likely that it has been going on for far longer than that.
Biden IS pro genocide, So is Harris, So is Trump. I don’t think it’s bad to point that out. Using it as a reason to vote for a Fascist instead is loony tunes, and as someone who frequents Leftist spaces I can tell you not a single person on reddit or Lemmy proposed any such nonsense who was taken seriously and wasn’t’ immediately down-voted into oblivion.
untorquer@lemmy.world 7 hours ago
Correction,
liberals: “😘🌈 No”
treedazzle@lemmynsfw.com 10 hours ago
Most of three Democrats in Congress are hardly liberal
SkyezOpen@lemmy.world 9 hours ago
Leftist. Liberalism is a right wing ideology.
Bamboodpanda@lemmy.world 19 hours ago
I’m frustrated with the reflexive “both sides are equally bad” response that shuts down any meaningful analysis of what’s actually happening in our politics.
I’m not naive about the Democratic Party’s problems. They struggle with internal divisions, sometimes cave to corporate pressure, and they’ve made compromises that disappointed their base. But when I look at voting records, policy proposals, and legislative priorities, I see meaningful differences that have real consequences for people’s lives.
On issues I care about (healthcare access, climate action, voting rights, ext.) one party consistently proposes solutions and votes for them when they have the numbers. The other party doesn’t just oppose these policies, they fight tooth and nail to undermine them, delay them, or dismantle them entirely. That’s not a matter of opinion. That’s a matter of public record.
When Democrats fail to deliver, it’s often because they lack sufficient majorities or face procedural roadblocks. When they do have power, they’ve passed significant legislation on infrastructure, climate investment, and healthcare expansion. Meanwhile, when Republicans have unified control, their priorities have been tax cuts for the wealthy and rolling back environmental protections.
I understand the appeal of cynicism. It can feel sophisticated to dismiss all politicians as equally corrupt. But that cynicism serves the interests of those who benefit from the status quo.
If you can’t tell the difference between someone trying to reform a broken system and someone actively working to keep it broken, you’re not offering insight. You’re providing cover for obstruction.
Does this mean Democrats are perfect? Of course not. Should we hold them accountable when they fall short? Absolutely. But pretending there are no meaningful differences between the parties just because neither is perfect makes it harder to build the coalitions we need to create the change we actually want to see.
Wolf@lemmy.today 1 hour ago
No one is saying both sides are equally bad. And we keep saying this over and over, and it gets ignored. Just so were on the same page NO ONE is saying both sides equally bad.
Ironically it’s usually the opposite. Someone will make the lightest possible criticism of Liberals and the knee-jerk reaction to that is “So you think both sides are equally bad?!” That’s what usually shuts the conversation down.
Try replacing sometimes with “usually”. They may be different corps, but almost all of them are in the pocket of one corp or another.
That’s putting it mildly.
Of course, and again literally no one is saying they are equally bad. You can vote for the less bad option while still hoping for meaningful change.
It’s usually weak, ineffective half-measures more designed to look progressive than actually being progressive, but sure if you compare them to literal Nazi’s they are saints.
So, just as an example when Obama was president and Dems had the majority in both houses of congress, and Republicans were shitting all over themselves proving that they would not compromise a single inch- instead of passing any type of “Medicare for all” or “Right to Healthcare”, instead they passed the highly compromised “Affordable Care Act”. Why? Contrast that fact with this statement from Obama prior to the election.
Odd that when the Dems had “taken back” the White House and both houses of Congress the best they could do was a watered down and problematic solution that still left a lot of people without health care. It’s not like compromising on that gained them a single Republican vote.
“Coincidentally” the Healthcare Industry ‘donated’ over $20 million to the Obama campaign, way more than even the almost $8 million they ‘donated’ to John McCain. Very odd indeed.
I honestly can’t think of a single institution anywhere in the world more devoted to maintaining the status quo than the DNC. Not one. They aren’t ‘progressive’ in any way. Obama didn’t even come out in support of Gay Marriage until he had been president for over 3 years, and after right wing Democrat Joe Biden already had. This wasn’t due to some sense of fairness or equality, it was political pressure.
By refusing to even hear about potential failings of ‘liberal democrats’ without engaging in with ‘whataboutism’, it only strengthens the DNC’s position as the ‘good guys, fighting for reform’ when the reality is they are the ‘less bad guys, fighting to maintain the status quo’.
Fascists are bad. We all know they are bad. We all know they are worse than a bunch of corporate stooges who want everyone to be slaves to Capitalism, but at least you can feel good they are doing the bare minimum to address the multitudes of problems in the country.
There is a third option, and there is absolutely noting wrong with pointing out the flaws on both sides of the Two Party system and hoping for a future of ‘actually good’ instead of ‘less bad’. Even if it is just a dream, I’d rather waste my life trying to make those dreams real than throwing my arms up and saying “This is the best we can ever hope for”.
salacious_coaster@infosec.pub 19 hours ago
I agree with you that the parties are not the same. The GOP are outright evil puppets of the billionaire class. The Democrats are ineffectual cowards who’ve made careers out of paying lip service to the right thing, and every now and then doing something helpful if it’s convenient for them and doesn’t piss off their billionaire donors. A lot of the time that ends up translating to the same results for most people.
I don’t buy the “sorry, our hands are tied” line we always get from the left. Dems throw up their hands even when they do have majorities. The first meaningful opportunity the Democrats had to obstruct Trump’s agenda, after the left base had been screaming for weeks for their representatives to do something, Schumer rolled over immediately. I can’t take this party seriously anymore.
Resonosity@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 hours ago
Democrats are definitely not leftist. Center right would be more apt.
Son_of_Macha@lemmy.cafe 2 hours ago
The dems are not left they are center right. The repubs are far right.
Bamboodpanda@lemmy.world 18 hours ago
I won’t defend Schumer’s choice here. It was a bad call, and the anger from House Democrats and the base was completely justified. You’re right that the party leadership sometimes folds when they should fight. They make strategic decisions that feel disconnected from the urgency the moment demands. And yes, Democrats have corporate-aligned figures who blunt the force of reform, but that is also a reality of our current system that we have to work within.
But, sticking to your example, there is a key difference: when Democrats cave, it’s often to avoid causing harm, like a shutdown that would devastate working people. When Republicans cave, it’s to secure more tax cuts, more deregulation, and more authoritarian power. The intent and the outcome are not the same, even if the compromise leaves a bad taste in everyone’s mouth.
It also matters that Democrats have factions pushing from within. The anger from House Dems, from AOC, from the base, that’s real pressure that can move things. Republicans don’t have that kind of internal accountability. Their party punishes dissent and rewards obstruction.
And while it’s easy to say “they always have excuses,” the reality is that even when Democrats had a trifecta in 2021, their margin in the Senate was literally 50-50. One or two bad actors (like Manchin or Sinema) could tank an entire agenda, and did. That’s not an excuse. That’s a math problem, and the only way around it is bigger, more engaged progressive coalitions.
So yes, Schumer failed in that moment (and many others). Yes, we should be furious. But walking away or writing off the party entirely means handing power back to a movement that’s not just flawed. It’s actively hostile to democracy, human rights, and the planet. That’s not moral purity. That’s surrender.
salacious_coaster@infosec.pub 18 hours ago
Your defense of the Democrats boils down to “at least we’re not the GOP.” And you’re not wrong. I’ve done my part by voting against the GOP in every election since I was eligible. The Democrats themselves don’t even do that. I wish their effort would at least match mine, seeing as it’s their full-time job. And I wish you held your reps as accountable as your fellow voters.
schema@lemmy.world 17 hours ago
I agree with you and like to emphasis on one point you already mentioned. The demcrats encompass everything to the left of the GOP. Because the GOP is far right, everything to the left of it includes center right, conservatives, centrist and liberal opinions, as well as a lot of the left wing.
In my opinion this is one of the major reasons why the democrats seem so undecicive, because there already are so many different world views of people that are forced to be in the same party, because effectively, there only are two of them, and the alternative is straight up fascism.
If the democrats ever regain power, changing the voting system to allow for a 3rd or 4th party to actually emerge would be a saving grace, but unfortunately, the above mentioned composition will likely prevent them from it, even when in power. And on top of that they will have their hands full with the debt crisis.
FreakinSteve@lemmy.world 16 hours ago
Democrats CONTINUE to enforce and support the unpopular, treasonous, ineffectual leadership. We can talk about Schumer’s bad choice all day long but it means nothing if he is never ever ever ever ever “held accountable” for it. They literally stuck an old fossil with cancer in the DNC chair versus the clearly obvious choice that gets things done and excites the voters. He literally ran a PRO-TRUMP Democrat to unseat McConnell when all the energy was behind Charles Booker.
Young voters and progressives do not believe in anything you say because there is no will to back it up.
Muaddib@sopuli.xyz 13 hours ago
You’ve fallen for Democrat propaganda. They want you to think they can’t be taken seriously. They want to lose.
KindnessIsPunk@lemmy.ca 18 hours ago
There’s a great article written here about how Neo-liberal policy backed up into this corner where neither party can produce meaningful progress.
shads@lemy.lol 15 hours ago
From my detached non American (but still a citizen of the planet so likely to get fucked hard by the way Americans vote) point of view, seems like Americans are continually letting perfect be the enemy of least bad. “Well since Democrats are kinda bad in these instances maybe we should just go fully fascist theological doom cult. That will force the Democrats to improve, or kill us all.”
DrDeadCrash@programming.dev 12 hours ago
American here…I think it’s actually more the opposite. Everyone is being told to vote for the lessor evil and no one is getting what they want. That’s what caused all this to begin with imo… The Magas torched their party trying to get something different to happen politically (not to excuse them or anyone). This is all on the 2 party system, if we make it out of this I think ending that system is one major change that will need to take place to avoid repeating the cycle. Basically, we lost our Republic a long time ago when Congress stopped representing us and became owned by billionaires.
shads@lemy.lol 3 hours ago
I have written and rewritten my response here trying to find the right tone. I feel like we are closer to agreement here than might be immediately obvious. I think a lot of what we are seeing now is a result of 50+ years of people who find the idea of your republic distasteful seeking every method they can to erode it away. All the details are just components of this project, seems to me that MAGA is a result of years of stoking xenophobia and anti-intellectualism. Turns out if you spend decades laying the groundwork you can make the situation seem completely hopeless to a whole populace. I sincerely worry the long term goal is to perfect the formula for dismantling democracy and then start exporting it to the rest of the world.
Or I could be a fool, I don’t know and I don’t want to rewrite this again. Sorry that this was so rambling.
Delphia@lemmy.world 17 hours ago
Ive always put it in the very crude fashion of “They are both going to fuck us, but one of them spits on it and goes in gentle the other one wants us to struggle.”
Muaddib@sopuli.xyz 13 hours ago
It’s called controlled opposition. The Democratic party has a lot of passionate, honest people, who want to make the world a better place. But they’re funded and directed at the highest levels of leadership by a group that secretly wants to make the world a worse place.
And the way they accomplish that is making sure the passionate honest people lose. Kamala Harris was bragging about drilling for oil and staying quiet about Gaza because either she or the people giving her advice wanted her to lose.
“Both sides bad” is the party’s intended messaging strategy. And it’s a lie. But it’s a lie people are falling for and repeating.
mojofrododojo@lemmy.world 14 hours ago
shitty children petulantly whining they never get their way.
mind you, “their way” would alienate more than 60% of voters
no party is perfect, but they are wholly deluded and will lash out like spurned tweens denied their crocks. the know conservatives don’t give two flying fucks about them, so they have to lash out at dems / liberals / anyone not sufficiently ML to stand up to their purity tests.
it would be hilarious academically, but their bullshit does real world harm.
hansolo@lemmy.today 16 hours ago
The more accurate form of the comment to which you’re reacting would be:
Can I have a free beer?
Conservatives: No
Liberals: Points to novelty sign on wall Free Beer Tomorrow winks “so you want a beer today? That’ll be $8.99”
The results aren’t exactly the same, but the gulf is not meaningful is the problem. Realistically, most people don’t actually like either party, they just dislike the other party more. If one day we had a 7 random parties just appear and Rs and Ds vanish, for a solid 20 years, political discourse would be verdant and nuanced in a way rarely seen in the US.
Crashumbc@lemmy.world 15 hours ago
Ooof that fact that you think the “gulf is not meaningful” is insane.
I mean JFC, are you blind or a troll? I don’t even have enough time to list the Nazi level illegal and democracy ending shit Trump is doing right now.
hansolo@lemmy.today 8 hours ago
Lol, I have two degrees in studying this, and I’m old enough to have seen the full cycle play out a few times for both sides. I’m not trolling, I’m jaded AF. And I’m taking about what either party does as a party line. Orange Bully is obviously different, but it’s an individual thing, nothing the party itself has accomplished or done.
Look, if the difference was so vast, ask yourself why Schumer and all the other 70+ year old Dems seem hellbent on laying low and doing nothing to maintain their own power? Maybe get a couple seats in 2026? That’s not resistance. That’s capitulation. Not even strategic capitulation, simply consent and wishes for crumbs. The same thing the alt-right does because TACO boy always chickens out when it comes to a “crossing the Rubicon” style move.
Political parties only exist to enrich and entrench politicians in the party. They are unions for politicians, with no benefits passed to the voters unless it first benefits the politicians. Open your eyes. If you think either party is so noble and steadfast and true, ask yourself where, in a time of need, they are.
NewSocialWhoDis@lemm.ee 14 hours ago
Attacking the commenter personally is not helpful. Obviously the whole destruction-of-American-Democracy thing is very different. But let’s look at some salient issues.
As far as the war in Gaza, Biden/ establishment Democrats still stood behind Netanyahu in the wake of Oct 7th. There was only slight functional differences in Biden’s America’s stance on Israel in Gaza and Trump’s.
Less salient, adding a cap on mortgage interest deductions on taxes. Republicans under Trump I did it to punish wealthy coastal (high home value) residents who rented to vote blue. Democrats left it in place because they approved of people who have more home value paying more taxes.
It goes on. Both Democrats and Republicans failed to close Guantanamo, advance voting reform, advance marijuana legalization, end the war in Afghanistan, or take ANY action about climate change for decades, etc.
It’s not every issue mind you, but Democrats are frustratingly adherent to the status quo while the United States has needed meaningful reform for decades.