Submitted 1 year ago by nydas@lemmy.world to [deleted]
When I eat chicken, I call it chicken. Chicken wing; chicken drumsticks etc.
When I eat lamb, I call it lamb. Lamb shank; lamb cutlets.
So why do I not eat pig or cow? I eat pork or beef. Is there a reason for that?
Because of the Norman invasion. 1066 and all that.
Interesting but doesn’t quite answer the question.
Boeuf is the French word for beef, not cow. So the question is still why do we call it roast boeuf instead of roast vache?
To be more confusing, cow is the term for the female of the species, in this case cattle, but female whales are also called cows.
Does vache mean cow or does vache mean cattle?
The French eating it called it beef, the English raising it called it cow. The french didn’t call it roast cow because they were eating it as food, thus beef.
The above poster explained your question already.
Boeuf is the male cow. Vache is a female.
Perfect and succinct answer.
If it involves food or the culinary arts, then chances are good France and the French language is involved.
Chicken has Its own “Norman” word, which is “poultry”.
True. I think someone else pointed this out as well. But I don’t eat a poultry drumstick. The English language is a funny thing!
This phenomenon is far from exceptional to English though.
Same for lamb, mutton
We do in Denmark.
The english words are different because…
The farmers would call it by its english name. And the king and other fancy people would use the french.
Pig becomes porc
For example.
Eventually this meant that when the animal was alive youd call it by the english name. And when it was butchered you used the french name.
Or so i read once.
So, what do I call that hooker in my trunk, now that she’s dead?
An "accident"
My favorite animal is the frikadellapotomus.
It’s because of the Norman conquest of England. Basically, the ruling nobility spoke French and the lower classes spoke English. The peasants who were in charge of livestock spoke English so pig, cow, and chicken stuck around. But it was mostly the upper classes who ate the meats so they used French words at the dinner table (beef from boeuf, pork from porc, poultry from poulet, etc.).
Tagger below explains it but also wanted to chime in that chicken is often “poultry”, but over time, we became comfortable with “chicken”.
Not exactly. The poultry family includes other fowl/birds, including turkey and duck.
true! I poorly was thinking about poultry as a derivative of french words.
As I understand it, after the norman invasion in 1066, generally the Saxon (Germanic speaking) people reared the animals so the names for the animals come from the German language, but the norman (French speaking) people eat the animals so the names for the meat generally derive from the French language.
Cows breed for meat do not produce milk other than that needed for calves.
We do eat cows
calamari is just squid in Greek, maybe English people learned about cooking squid from Greece since there’s so many of them and the word for it just stuck
Beef’s turn…
c. 1300, “an ox, bull, or cow,” also the flesh of one when killed, used as food, from Old French buef “ox; beef; ox hide” (11c., Modern French boeuf), from Latin bovem (nominative bos, genitive bovis) “ox, cow,” from PIE root *gwou- “ox, bull, cow.” The original plural in the animal sense was beeves
There’s nothing arbitrary about it. The Norman invasion meant the English ruling class, and therefor the ones introducing culinary terms, spoke French. Peasants spoke English, which was far more Germanic at the time. So the peasants breeding animals and whos names for the live animal stuck, used the words pig and cow, while those creating what few recipes we do have were using French boeuf and porc
Fascinating! Thank you all for the answers! I got an F in French at high school, which might explain why I hadn’t made the connection.
Adoption from French, I assume. I would say sheep for the animal and lamb for the meat, though.
Lamb (the meat) is specifically young sheep, which are also called lambs. Adult sheep are called sheep, but the meat is called mutton.
English makes no sense.
Hogget for in between.
A sheep in its first year is a lamb and its meat is also lamb. The meat from sheep in their second year is hogget. Older sheep meat is mutton.
Oh…, maybe not.
Generally, “hogget” and “sheep meat” are not used by consumers outside Norway, New Zealand, South Africa, Scotland, and Australia.
Sheep in french is mouton. Pig is porc and cow is boeuf. Squid is calmar
lamb is the young animal. Sheep raised for meat don’t live long enough to not be lamb, though. old animals tend to produce tougher meat. (as apposed to sheep raised for wool production.)
Quality documentary. Much better than anything BBC ever produced. Literally answers all the questions I had and some I didn’t know I could ever have.
Lots of more nuanced answers, but I want to say language is weird, that’s why
I’m also confused as to why English-speaking people in general, at least in the U.S. and Britain, are fine with eating sheep but not goat. Goat is one of those exotic meats the foreigners eat for some reason. I’ve never even had the opportunity to try goat. Could it be all that different?
Goat is a bit of an acquired taste. That’s why it’s usually heavily spiced and stewed or slow cooked. And it’s not like people eat a ton of mutton, either.
It's different in the same way that pheasant is different to chicken or wild pork is different to farmed pork.
In other words a stronger taste.
Goat is widely eaten in my country. We don’t eat lamb.
What country is that, if you don’t mind me asking?
Goat sounds more sustainable. You don’t have to keep culling them when they’re juveniles.
Goat is quite widely eaten in the UK. Mainly in Carribbean cuisine and indian cuisine in my experience.
I guess I meant outside of food cultures that don’t come from within those countries.
Very good question. I’m actually often not sure what I’m eating. Have to remember that pork is pig, and beef is cow. For some reason I never thought about it even.
whenigrowup356@lemmy.world 1 year ago
My understanding is that the difference in terms goes back to the Norman invasion, which is when a ton of French-based terms for things were carried over.
The peasants referred to everything as the name of the animal but the French nobles referred to it as porc, boeuf, etc. This is also where we got the words for venison, mutton, veal, poultry, and also apparently pheasant
zzzz@lemmy.world 1 year ago
To add to this, the rich (i.e., French-speaking) consumed the most butchered meat, by far. So, it came to be that butchered meat for sale would be labeled in French, while the live animals, which were tended by (English-speaking) peasents retained their English names.
monsterlynn@kbin.social 1 year ago
@whenigrowup356 Yup. And then you have the New World animals where we use the name of the animal for both the animal and the meat, like buffalo.
@nydas
Ajen@sh.itjust.works 1 year ago
And then we have foods like Buffalo wings. English is fun.
neuromancer@lemmy.world 1 year ago
UnknownQuantity@lemmy.world 1 year ago
My country had not been invaded by the Normans and we speak completely different language, yet we don’t call it pig or cow either.
bigkix@lemm.ee 1 year ago
My country also has not been invaded by the Normans but we call pig a pig and cow a cow.
whenigrowup356@lemmy.world 1 year ago
If you don’t mind my asking, which language is yours?
It’s an interesting question to ponder which different languages ended up with distinction words for the meat vs the living animal, and maybe what that says about the culture.
The distinction is not a feature of French, from what I understand, and English ending up with this distinction seems to have been entirely accidental.
Fondots@lemmy.world 1 year ago
Piggybacking off of this, “venison” comes from a Latin word meaning “to hunt” and was originally used as more of a catch-all term for game meats. You might have deer venison, boar venison, rabbit venison, etc. Over time it came to mostly be used to refer to deer