Comment on Steven Spielberg is ‘a big PC Gamer’ — loves shooters, and insists on keyboard and mouse

abfarid@startrek.website ⁨1⁩ ⁨month⁩ ago

• FeelzGoodMan420@eviltoast.org ⁨1⁩ ⁨month⁩ ago

  Huh? Keyboard is completely fine. I wouldn’t have it any other way?

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  • abfarid@startrek.website ⁨1⁩ ⁨month⁩ ago

    Notice, that I didn’t say it’s impossible to use KB for gaming, I just said (or implied) that it’s not optimal. It’s not good, it’s just what we have and what we are used to, and there’s a lot of room for improvement. And I say this as a PC gamer of 30+ years. So much so that when I lay my hand on a keyboard it automatically assumes the WASD position, even if I intend to type.

    And I’m glad that I brought this perspective to your attention, because we often don’t question what we are used to since childhood. Hopefully, these discussions will eventually bring us something better, that we have not yet thought of.

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    • FeelzGoodMan420@eviltoast.org ⁨1⁩ ⁨month⁩ ago

      It is optimal though. Aiming with a mouse is 9 million % more effective than thumbsticks.

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      • abfarid@startrek.website ⁨1⁩ ⁨month⁩ ago

        You’re missing my point and just sticking to the usual false dichotomy of KBM vs. gamepads. I’m saying, we should come up with something better than a device designed for entering text, and I didn’t even criticize mice. Keyboard isn’t and can’t be “optimal” gaming device because that’s not its purpose, and it’s not what it was optimized for. Games just adapted to accommodate the devices already included with every PC, with varying degrees of success. That is just a fact, not an opinion. Keyboards weren’t made for playing games, we just adapted to using them, therefore they aren’t optimal.

        Which means that we are yet to develop the optimal device for gaming to use in conjunction with the mouse, one that was designed specifically for that purpose. Just because you “don’t know what else would be better when combined with the mouse” (quote from your other comment) it doesn’t mean that nobody can design something better.

        Yes, controller are purpose built for gaming, and they are definitely far superior in a lot of game genres. But mouse still is better for precision control, be it aiming a gun or selecting a unit. And keyboard is holding it back, because it’s just an unoptimized row of buttons.

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      • IronKrill@lemmy.ca ⁨1⁩ ⁨month⁩ ago

        Per their original comment, they aren’t saying mouse is bad. Their problem is with the keyboard.

        … we merely tolerate keyboard as a gaming input device because of the precision that mouse provides

        Why are you bringing up the mouse again?

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    • trashgirlfriend@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨month⁩ ago

      For precise inputs keyboards are really good, stuff like tactical shooters, a lot of custom fighting game controllers are basically just paired down keyboards too.

      Keyboards are pretty fucking cool, analog sticks are easy to use and good if you need the 360 degree movement, but otherwise keyboards all the way.

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      • abfarid@startrek.website ⁨1⁩ ⁨month⁩ ago

        You’re misinterpreting my point. We can make a device with precise inputs that isn’t a flat slab of buttons, we just haven’t yet. This is not a gamepad vs. KBM argument.

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  • tfw_no_toiletpaper@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨month⁩ ago

    no-gamepad games

    i.e. dark souls

    Who in their right mind plays souls games or any action RPG with mouse / keyboard?? You cannot even play demon souls with a mouse. A mouse is for aiming in shooters and the like.

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    • FeelzGoodMan420@eviltoast.org ⁨1⁩ ⁨month⁩ ago

      You misread my comment. I’m saying Dark Souls is an example of a gamepad game.

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      • tfw_no_toiletpaper@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨month⁩ ago

        Oh nvm yes I misread

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    • IronKrill@lemmy.ca ⁨1⁩ ⁨month⁩ ago

      Can you not? I’ve played various third person combat games (are they all part of “hack n slash”?) with a mouse just fine. I do prefer controller, but there’s nothing wrong with using a kb/mouse in most of those games. Is Dark Souls control scheme really that bad?

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  • copd@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨month⁩ ago

    Although his opinion is unpopular and you may have not of heard of it, that fact has precisely zero to do with its truthfulness.

    “If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses” - Henry Ford

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• TrousersMcPants@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨month⁩ ago

  Nah, mouse and keyboard is great for a lot of things. Strategy games, most MMORPGs. Heck even fighting games are actually really nice on a keyboard if you can get used to it, you can do very complicated movements by just pressing a few buttons, the actual analog input is actually completely unutilized in most fighting games anyway.

  Having such a precise control over the buttons you press as well as having such a large amount of them is really important to a lot of games. And honestly even if we made a unique controller to replicate this precise input, we would still end up using a keyboard anyway because you can actually type messages on it, too.

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  • abfarid@startrek.website ⁨1⁩ ⁨month⁩ ago

    I specifically mentioned those special cases. It’s obviously nearly impossible to play RTS and MMORPGs with a controller effectively. And of course another reason we use keyboards is that some games are just text input/typing-heavy, it would be mighty inconvenient switching to and from another input method very often.

    But I also think that it’s easy to argue the point that the device designed with the sole purpose of entering text is not optimal for navigating characters in 2D/3D space. Something better just hasn’t come along yet or it hasn’t been popularized enough. An improved mouse design could also offload a lot of inputs from the kb hand, like those MMORPG mice with macro buttons. There’s definitely room for improvement.

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    • TrousersMcPants@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨month⁩ ago

      Idk, anything that does what a keyboard does for gaming will basically just end up being a keyboard honestly. If you want a set of easily accessible, customizable buttons for a videogame, what better than just a whole board filled with them really. I think that KBM has stuck around so long is that it is just a great way to play a lot of games.

      My main point is just that I don’t think a lot of people are “tolerating” keyboard controls like you initially said.

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      • abfarid@startrek.website ⁨1⁩ ⁨month⁩ ago

        I think it stuck around because the primary purpose of a computer is still information handling, and thus almost all of them require a keyboard. And since keyboard is always included and is “good enough” people just kept using what was available. History is littered with cases where something stuck merely because it was good enough and easily available. The QWERTY layout itself is a good example. There are layouts that are much better, yet 99% of the keyboards still use it. Because alt layout keyboards are scarce and using them requires relearning. All while QWERTY is good enough.

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  • ByteOnBikes@slrpnk.net ⁨1⁩ ⁨month⁩ ago

    Fighting games with a keyboard? Scary stuff.

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    • TrousersMcPants@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨month⁩ ago

      It works surprisingly well, most 2D fighting games are just doing 8 directional movement anyway, so it can make a lot of inputs easier actually

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• scorp@lemmy.ml ⁨1⁩ ⁨month⁩ ago

  speak for yourself. the Keyboard(s) tolerated me when i got hyperfocused during a gaming session not the other way around.

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• PunchingWood@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨month⁩ ago

  Gaming sticks (and weird ass abominations like trackball mice) were quite popular for some time during late 90s and early 00s, but now they’re mostly limited to certain games like flight/space games and usually part of a HOTAS setup.

  What I miss on keyboard & mouse setups is any form of analogue input, usually best for driving in games and walking faster/slower etc. But nothing is stopping me from just plugging in any controller and it’ll usually work on PC just fine.

  For everything else I simply prefer keyboard anyway, many more buttons and combinations that controllers often lack. Lots of controller supported games these days need ways around having too many buttons by adding modifiers or having to use select-wheels and what not.

  Hell I’d even go as far as adding a Stream Deck to my setup (I don’t even stream), just to have another panel of (configurable) buttons to use for various games and stuff.

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  • Kushan@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨month⁩ ago

    Yup I’m with you here. I love KBM and it’s my preferred way to play for most games, but when it comes to driving I’d much prefer a controller with analogue triggers and a stick (unless it’s a sim racer, in which case a wheel of course) for that extra precision.

    Unfortunately I can’t think of a good design to give that level of control to just one hand. Analogue keys are a thing but they sound awful, nowhere near enough precision due to the short travel of them.

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  • TrousersMcPants@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨month⁩ ago

    You can technically get analog keyboard switches for your WASD movement and such, but afaik it’d be quite expensive and require a fairly customized keyboard to pull off. But it can be done!

    Also I love having extra mouse buttons for all my modifiers. I use mine in WoW to access all my hotbars without moving my hand to press any modifier keys on the keyboard, really nice setup.

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    • PunchingWood@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨month⁩ ago

      Yeah I thought about trying an analogue keyboard but I don’t think I’ll enjoy how those keys would work, just doesn’t feel natural on a keyboard.

      I also recently got a mouse with 12 buttons, specifically for WoW at the time lol. I have whole grid set up for just using those buttons. So many more (easy) keybinds opened up because of that.

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  • toynbee@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨month⁩ ago

    On PC, I game exclusively with trackballs and have since the nineties. I’ve never not been given the side eye when someone found out that’s how I play.

    When was this magical time during which they were popular?

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    • PunchingWood@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨month⁩ ago

      I remember a friend had one of those things, it was some experience lol

      I think one of my uncles and one of my teachers had one too, but it’s been like 24 years or so.

      They were also featured heavily on just about every computer expo we went to during that time, I think it was a pretty short period that they were marketed but I remember seeing them everywhere for that time.

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      • toynbee@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨month⁩ ago

        Well, fair enough that you were exposed to them. I didn’t have a lot of friends, especially not those even remotely into any kind of tech, as a kid; I think I first heard of trackballs from a programming teacher in about 1996 and bought one to try out of curiosity. Ever since then I’ve used one whenever it was an option.

        I’ve even mostly used the same model. If you look in my comment history, you can see I recently mentioned that most of what I use is Kensington Orbits. I’ve tried other models, but they don’t work for me.

        The one PC gaming exception for me is Minecraft. In that game you have to right-click a lot (as I’m sure you know) and I guess I haven’t developed the muscles for that because it makes my wrist very tired very quickly. Still, I play a lot of FPS games and have no problem holding the right click for zoom and such; only quick, repetitive right-clicking causes problems for me.

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• Assman@sh.itjust.works ⁨1⁩ ⁨month⁩ ago

  Skill issue

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  • abfarid@startrek.website ⁨1⁩ ⁨month⁩ ago

    I aspire to git gud one day.

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• IronKrill@lemmy.ca ⁨1⁩ ⁨month⁩ ago

  I’m not sure I agree with “tolerating” keyboard. I quite like it over a joystick! The benefit in complex games (like RTS, as you mention) is obvious, but even in most 3D games I prefer the instant reaction and definite axis of WASD over the fine-tunable precision of a joystick. There are not many times I would rather move at 2° forwards-right at a ramping 95% speed instead of simply moving forwards at 100% instantly. As for racing or other games that require precise analog inputs, I would generally prefer something that is bigger than my thumb i.e a racing wheel.

  That isn’t to say I completely disagree, though! The ergonomics are a clear disadvantage. Most keyboards are not ergonomic for typing, let alone gaming. It would be fantastic to see more gaming-specialised keypad devices other than that one Razor one and whatever Chinese Amazon specials are kicking around. But the keypad format is not something I would want to forego as any FPS I play for more than 20 hours I usually have the entire left half of the keyboard bound to something for quick access.

  I upvoted you because this is a great discussion point. :)

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  • abfarid@startrek.website ⁨1⁩ ⁨month⁩ ago

    Yeah, I’m not strictly comparing KBM vs. gamepad. As you mentioned, keyboards are just not ergonomic, and that’s what I was basically saying. So you understood my point precisely, I, too, want to see more options.

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  • Mac@mander.xyz ⁨1⁩ ⁨month⁩ ago

    You could configure a thumbstick to operate how you want whereas with a board you can never have fully porpotional control.
    On top of that, most controllers have directional pads.

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• MeatsOfRage@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨month⁩ ago

  As I get older I’ve grown to just appreciate comfort over precision. I don’t play competitive multiplayer, in fact the only multiplayer I play is COD zombies with some buddies once a week. And we all suck anyways so we’re just having a laugh. I’d much rather just lean back in my chair with a controller.

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• dan1101@lemm.ee ⁨1⁩ ⁨month⁩ ago

  Depends on the type of game.

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  • abfarid@startrek.website ⁨1⁩ ⁨month⁩ ago

    As I said, except special occasions. But ultimately, it’s still not perfect for anything but typing-heavy games. I can probably imagine a better propriety input method for RTS that would forgo finger gymnastics.

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• variants@possumpat.io ⁨1⁩ ⁨month⁩ ago

  Azeron cyborg is really nice but takes a bit to setup you keybinds for each game since even between fps games they can’t decide what key opens a door

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  • abfarid@startrek.website ⁨1⁩ ⁨month⁩ ago

    Yes! That’s the kind of stuff I hope goes mainstream and supported more. Something purpose-built not for typing, but for gaming.

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• GoodEye8@lemm.ee ⁨1⁩ ⁨month⁩ ago

  There are some exceptions but I generally agree. The keyboard isn’t anywhere as precise as an analogue stick. Ideally I would use something like HOTAS for movement and mouse for aiming.

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• Mac@mander.xyz ⁨1⁩ ⁨month⁩ ago

  So true. I distinctly remember instances while playing GTAV with controller in the left hand and mouse in the right. lol
  Would love to find a dedicated peripheral that i liked to be used similarly.

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• glimse@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨month⁩ ago

  I used to play with a guy who was awesome with a mouse in his right hand and a controller in his left. Pretty cool setup. I tried it out and it wasn’t for me

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  • ByteOnBikes@slrpnk.net ⁨1⁩ ⁨month⁩ ago

    My wife does this because shes purely a M+K player and one game, she was sucking st. So she plugged in one of my controllers and moved with the controller, but looked with the mouse.

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    • glimse@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨month⁩ ago

      I’m almost entirely mouse/keyboard but some games are just better with controllers…Rocket League, MGS, Yakuza…couldn’t imagine enjoying them without it.

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• Alk@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨month⁩ ago

  Game pads that use keyboard keys with custom switches and unique form factors are where I think we’re heading. Like the razer tartarus v2, which I have. It is great for gaming, better than a standard keyboard that uses identical switches, but still not ideal. It is similar enough to the layout of a keyboard that finger positioning can be the same and the learning curve is smooth.

  It’s closer to your “ideal” but not there yet. And I completely agree that we need to go in that direction.

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• circuitfarmer@lemmy.sdf.org ⁨1⁩ ⁨month⁩ ago

  Not sure on that one.

  I’m one of the very few people who loves the Steam Controller. If given an option between KBM and Steam Controller, I generally do the latter. The right pad as mouse isn’t as accurate as a mouse, but damned if it isn’t way more comfy from the couch.

  I guess what I’m saying is: I’d suggest it is less about KBM and more about what games you play, where you play them, and probably whether or not you play multiplayer.

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• ByteOnBikes@slrpnk.net ⁨1⁩ ⁨month⁩ ago

  As a longtime PC gamer, Games like Dark Souls was impossible for me to play with a keyboard. But I kept watching my friends play it and really liked it a lot. Got one of those discount Xbox controller knockoffs and got pretty good with the game using a controller.

  When the Steamdeck came around, I felt right at home with a controller.

  It’s shifted dramatically where 90% of games, I’m playing controller. But still can’t play FPSes with one. (Even though I got pretty good with Halo back in the day)

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• Honytawk@lemmy.zip ⁨1⁩ ⁨month⁩ ago

  True, depending on the game of course.

  I’ve been thinking of a mouse / controller hybrid solution being the ultimate gaming peripheral. Joystick to walk and drive, mouse to aim. Should easily hold its own in PC shooters and console racers.

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• Blaster_M@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨month⁩ ago

  The irony is, the top world record runs on Trackmania (a not-a-hot-wheels track time trial driving game) tracks are done by keyboard drivers. Driving a high performance car on a crazy, loop-de-loopy jumps and bumps and speed boosters tracks is quickest with … WASD controls.

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  • abfarid@startrek.website ⁨1⁩ ⁨month⁩ ago

    It’s not really that ironic. Something more ergonomic with the same tactile short travel buttons would’ve worked even better, you can just also do it with a keyboard, albeit not as comfortably.

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