Comment on Chicken vs Egg

LillyPip@lemmy.ca ⁨7⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

• srecko@lemm.ee ⁨7⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  You can interpret it that way now but that’s not the original meanig.

  en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_or_the_egg

  I understand and respect where you are coming from but i prefer not to rewrite history while arguing about ideas.

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  • AFKBRBChocolate@lemmy.world ⁨7⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    Yes, thank you, you’re exactly right. The person you’re responding to is correct that it’s come to have science vs religion overtones, but that’s not what the expression meant to people for ages and ages.

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    • MrShankles@reddthat.com ⁨7⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      a metaphoric adjective describing situations where it is not clear which of two events should be considered the cause and which should be considered the effect

      I guess the overtones are a product of their times. Currently, it seems to be: is science/religion the “cause” or “effect”.

      I always staked claim that it was a “scientific vs philosophical” question; but I never considered how timeline could change the overtones or underlying thinking of “The chicken and the egg” concept. Neat

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  • LillyPip@lemmy.ca ⁨7⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    You’re right, I shouldn’t have said ‘never’. It was a paradox in ancient history, but at least in my lifetime, I’ve read it as basically solved. That may be a relatively recent stance (since 100-200 years ago), but it doesn’t seem useful to continue presenting it as a paradox at this point.

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• dharmacurious@slrpnk.net ⁨7⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  I’ve always interpreted it as which came first, the chicken or the chicken egg?

  But I’d just like to point out not all religions have that view of creationism vs evolution, and even within Christianity it’s really only your super conservative, and very loud, fundamentalists. Catholicism doesn’t have an official stance on evolution, iirc, the Episcopal church in the USA is fully supportive of evolution, as are most mainline Christians. Not to detract from your point or anything, I just don’t like seeing all religious people, or all Christians, lumped together with some of the worst examples of religiosity that the US has to offer.

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  • InternetPerson@lemmings.world ⁨7⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    Religion is usually bad, so I don’t have an issue lumping them all together.

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    • tegs_terry@feddit.uk ⁨7⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      C’mon man Sikhs are fucking chilled out

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      • InternetPerson@lemmings.world ⁨7⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

        Compared to other religions, I understand that take, if we neglect stuff like not living up to their own doctrine of, e.g., equal rights between women and men, or the Khalistan movement, which has caused death and abused human rights on several occasions, also by killing civilians.

        Still, as most organized religions, it became emergent as a tool of mass control and subjugation. Moral behaviour is not formed by critical thought and self-reflection, but by devotion to some mysterious higher power. Which is and always has been a core issue of problematic behaviour we can so often observe today with religious people. A side-effect is that it has the danger of hindering progress and societal evolution by having a creationism as one of it’s core teachings, as far as I know.

        A further form of subjugation, hindering freedom of individual human (and harmless) expression, can be found among the Kakkars. For example the “dress-code” with having uncut hair, cotton undergarments etc…

        I could go on. So to make it short, no, religions are usually detrimental for the long term constructive development of humanity and Sikhism is no exception.

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      • FlyingSquid@lemmy.world ⁨7⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

        Not necessarily… en.wikipedia.org/…/Assassination_of_Indira_Gandhi

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    • Chobeo@discuss.online ⁨7⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      Jesus is the Ted McGinley of family gatherings.

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  • NeatNit@discuss.tchncs.de ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    I’ve always interpreted it as which came first, the chicken or the chicken egg?

    I agree. And this boils down to how you define ‘chicken egg’. If the definition is “egg laid by a chicken”, then the chicken had to have come first. If it’s “egg that hatches a chick” (which will grow into a chicken), then the egg must have come first. But this ignores the pretty huge problem of picking a precise point on the evolutionary timeline where a non-chicken gave birth to a chicken. There isn’t going to be such a clearly-defined point.

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    • dharmacurious@slrpnk.net ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      Yeah, but it’s at least an interesting pointless unsolvable conundrum, whereas the other interpretations aren’t even interesting. Lol.

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• pyre@lemmy.world ⁨7⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  literally no one in the world means that when they talk about chicken vs egg

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  • LillyPip@lemmy.ca ⁨7⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    It made Fox News in 2015.

    A biology paper that same year..

    Religios people seem to care.

    More religious people care

    Biologists have been talking about it.

    BBC Science covered it.

    I didn’t pull this out of my arse.

    And re: that citation you asked for:

    God created mature birds with the ability to reproduce. So the bird was first, ready to lay eggs.

    — Answers In Genesis

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    • pyre@lemmy.world ⁨7⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      first of all kudos on the citations; thank you for your effort.

      I don’t think these prove that the question is about religion vs science. the question is philosophical, and the fact that some religious people have a take on it that doesn’t agree with what would be the scientific/technical answer doesn’t make it about religion vs science.

      if a tree falls and no one around to hear it, does it make a sound? that would also have a scientific answer, and depending on the religion, you may have a religious argument that disagrees with the scientific answer. the question would remain a philosophical one, and not one of science vs religion.

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      • LillyPip@lemmy.ca ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

        I wasn’t trying to prove the question is about religion vs science; I was responding to the previous comment that said:

        literally no one in the world means that

        My links show lots of people in the world say that. Not everyone, but enough that it does come up sometimes.

        There are multiple facets and perspectives in every philosophical question.

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• 01101000_01101001@mander.xyz ⁨7⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  This is by far the most correct answer to the chicken and egg question.

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  • Jako301@feddit.de ⁨7⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    Not really, it still doesn’t answer the question.

    Is the first chicken egg the one the chicken hatched from or the first egg a chicken laid.

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    • LillyPip@lemmy.ca ⁨7⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      Not-quite-a-chicken laid an egg containing a definitely-chicken. Actual chicken egg was first.

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      • flora_explora@beehaw.org ⁨7⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

        We are so zoomed in evolution at this point that the arbitrary distinction between what is a chicken and what not doesn’t make any sense anymore. Evolution does some jumps, but it is still hard to actually draw the line where a nearly-chicken has not been a chicken yet. Maybe someone could fill in my mental gap in here for me, but hasn’t Richard Dawkins given the example of some animal (possibly a rabbit?) that is traced back in evolution and since you cannot draw the line when it hasn’t been that animal it is rabbits all the way down?

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    • scifun@lemmy.world ⁨7⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      What came first? Chicken or egg?

      It doesn’t say if the question is about “chicken egg” but only egg

      Otherwise the question would be:

      What came first? Chicken or Chile chicken egg?

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• Iron_Lynx@lemmy.world ⁨7⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  I think there are two valid scientific/philosophical answers without taking religion into it, based on one question:

  Are we specifically talking a chicken egg, or the concept of an egg?

  In the former case, eggshells contain compounds that cannot exist in nature, and must come from a creature. a chicken egg cannot exist without a chicken before it, thus the chicken came first.

  In the latter case, various evolutionary splits happened between animals evolving egg developing capability and some animals evolving into chickens. From this we can say that the egg came before the chicken.

  Worst case, this solved exactly nothing. Best case, it can be an exercise in reasoning.

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