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Comment on "I wish you well in your future endeavors"

Excrubulent@slrpnk.net ⁨8⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

It’s almost like she’s trying to be polite because she knows that sometimes guys turn violent when they’re rejected.

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Tyfud@lemmy.world ⁨8⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
This. And I’m a guy. I completely understand why women are “overly” nice.

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Seasoned_Greetings@lemm.ee ⁨8⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
Woah now, you better not be insinuating that men and women are anything but exactly equal in their temperament. The salty dudes on Lemmy won’t let you get away with telling them otherwise.

I’ve been in a handful of conversations over the last couple weeks with men on this platform that don’t understand the concept that women have to treat men a specific way for fear of the few of them that can be violent.

Apparently watching out for your own safety as a woman by treating men differently is sexist and completely unacceptable.

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- Excrubulent@slrpnk.net ⁨8⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  Men killing women and women being afraid of being killed by men is apparently exactly the same thing, and we’re sexist for even noticing it. How dare we make them aware of an uncomfortable truth that they were successfully ignoring?
  
  As always, noticing bigotry is the real bigotry.
  
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  - Seasoned_Greetings@lemm.ee ⁨8⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    It’s not a hard concept to grasp. Thank you for saying it, and don’t pay the salty dudes here any mind. I readily tell the ones that argue on behalf of their egos to just talk to any woman they know about this, and I always get some half-cocked “well they’re bigots too” line.
    
    Like yeah, every woman is explicitly taught by other women not to put themselves in a potentially compromising position with a man because all women are secretly bigots.
    
    The male ego is such a fragile thing.
    
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  - PastaCeci@lemmy.ml ⁨8⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
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    Excrubulent@slrpnk.net ⁨8⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    Thanks for saying that. The sheer volume of unadulterated bullshit can be a little bit gaslighting sometimes.
    
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- MentalEdge@sopuli.xyz ⁨8⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  No, no, you’re supposed to treat everyone fairly, the exact same way and always assuming they are the best, most stable people who would never react adversely to a “no” or any other negative occurrence.
  
  And then when you run into that statistically inevitable crazy person, just let em beat you to death! You wouldn’t want to hurt the feelings of all the perfectly decent people you met before then, would you?
  
  Big giant /S
  
  This is unfortunately one of those cases where the mere existence of damgerous individuals makes being a little unfair with the rest of us completely warranted.
  
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- Kusimulkku@lemm.ee ⁨8⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  
  Woah now, you better not be insinuating that men and women are anything but exactly equal in their temperament.
  
  I’ve honestly been taught that blanket statements about sex/gender are usually not fine. So this sort of shit feels wrong in that sense and of course hurtful when you’re at the receiving end of a negative blanket statement.
  
  Apparently watching out for your own safety as a woman by treating men differently is sexist and completely unacceptable.
  
  I mean treating all men different is sexist and prejudiced. There’s really no way around that. Whether this sort of blanket prejudice is justified in this case, could be. But also that’s not a great look, to justify statistics or stereotype based prejudice.
  
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  - Seasoned_Greetings@lemm.ee ⁨8⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    1 in 3 women experience sexual assault of some kind in their lifetimes. 98% of the perpetrators are men.
    
    It’s not unreasonable for a woman to avoid putting herself in a situation that a potential predator can take advantage of. Talk to a woman you know about this. I’m tired of having this conversation with men who don’t understand and just get offended.
    
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    Kusimulkku@lemm.ee ⁨8⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    
    I’m tired of having this conversation with men who don’t understand and just get offended.
    
    Easy solution would be to talk about it in a manner that doesn’t need a clarification that’s you don’t think all men are like that. That’s really the issue with the way this is discussed.
    
    Nobody is denying the situation here, but rather taking offence to being labeled because of their gender.
    
    You have been on the receiving end your entire life if you are a man, and 9 times out of 10, you have not noticed because it does not affect you.
    
    I’m sorry but receiving end of what?
    
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- quindraco@lemm.ee ⁨8⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  Bear in mind Lemmy is an overall very leftist platform. Claiming an outside observer can tell a man from a woman is going to attract downvotes, let alone going on to list alleged specific differences.
  
  Note to readers, because I am used to Lemmy: Anyone assuming I agree or disagree with any given take on gender differences can fuck off. My actual post conveys no opinion on them.
  
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  - Seasoned_Greetings@lemm.ee ⁨8⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    You’re completely correct. Normally, I’m on the side of not assuming people’s gender and I’m of the mind that you shouldn’t judge a book by it’s cover.
    
    But, because of the safety and personal ramifications crossing the wrong person can have, I think it’s important that we acknowledge a woman’s right to seek safety in a situation she perceives might possibly go south for her. That includes the prerogative of not putting herself in a situation that she perceives as risky to begin with.
    
    Maybe that concept would be better accepted if it were expanded to “Anyone should have the right to avoid danger they think they might be in”
    
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dejected_warp_core@lemmy.world ⁨8⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
I’ll back you up.

Guys, we have to suck it up. I’ve talked with my wife about this very thing, a lot. She’s really helped me process a lot of relationship trauma in my deep past, including bad/weird breakups.

Men, by and large, have the ability to utilize violence in ways that women simply do not*. Especially towards women. This shapes a lot of inequity and abuse in society writ large, no matter where you are. Forget the law, forget about the rest doing the right thing, forget all your bias, and forget any logical fallacies you are clinging to right now. Just look at the stats above.

One in four. 25%. If knew you were doing anything in your day-to-day life that came with a risk of bodily or psychological harm a quarter of the time, every time, you’d probably just stop. Or, as OP is pointing out, screw social pretense and improvise a solution with a better shot at safety.

To flip that around, consider all the women you know and then think about how 25% of them have been abused in some way.

Women learn from their peers or otherwise adapt to be non-confrontational, passive, indirect, avoidant, or just plain not present. Sometimes that lesson is learned proactively, sometimes first-hand. Why? Because 25%, that’s why.

(* As someone who has been abused by women, yes, there are outliers. But since we’re talking statistics, that’s another discussion.)

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Kusimulkku@lemm.ee ⁨8⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

But if you’re saying, “NOt All mEn” in the face of this reality then let’s be real, you don’t actually give a shit about this. You just feel personally attacked and you want to deflect. Men getting mad because their fragile egos are bruised. Maybe some of them would turn violent if a woman said it to their faces. As they say, a hit dog will bark.

“If you are bothered by blanket statements and sexism towards you, it’s just because your ego is bruised and you might actually be the violent person I’ve painted you as.”

Incredible logic.

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- MentalEdge@sopuli.xyz ⁨8⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  No. The point is we can’t ask vulnerable people to throw caution to the wind when around those who have the ability to harm them.
  
  Part of being one of the good ones, is not taking it personally when someone who doesn’t know you are safe, takes steps to try and make sure you won’t harm them. Because they can’t know for sure that you wouldn’t.
  
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  - Kusimulkku@lemm.ee ⁨8⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    This is almost word for word what racists argue. You even used the term “one of the good ones”, holy hell. How do you not see how fucked up this is?
    
    Part of being one of the good ones, is not taking it personally when someone who doesn’t know you are safe, takes steps to try and make sure you won’t harm them. Because they can’t know for sure that you wouldn’t.
    
    It’s hard to not take it personally when a group you’re member of is being made negative blanket statements about and when those who think it’s hurtful speak up, they’re mocked. And then there’s the belittling language about how if you are “one of the good ones” you should just take it “make sure you won’t harm them”.
    
    Absolutely insane.
    
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    MentalEdge@sopuli.xyz ⁨8⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    So what exactly is the change you want?
    
    If you’re not asking vulnerable people to throw caution to the wind, be specific about what should be different.
    
    I know it feels like absolute shit to have the worst assumptions made about you because of your gender, race or whatever else, but aside from treating everyone fairly whenever no risk is involved, we can’t ask people to assume the best about others when deciding anything, if doing so puts them at the mercy of a stranger in any way.
    
    Hell. I’m a tall man, and I would have reservations if a girl wants to have a first date at her place, alone. Odds are, 99.99%, it’ll be fine. But what if it isn’t?
    
    We’re not discussing the kind of discrimination where you instantly and completely dismiss someone as a human being, but the kind where you are careful about what kind of human being they might be.
    
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ComfortableRaspberry@feddit.de ⁨8⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
Some countries in Europe started to look more into this topic since the number of femicides is growing and becoming more newsworthy it seems.

A lot of people are biased since sexism is deeply rooted in our society and many don’t realize what’s happening around them if they are not directly affected.

Just this week I had to discuss with a rather aggressive delivery person who berated me (unprovoked and for a made up reason) until my partner came from another room. As soon as he had to discuss his issue with another man he started to believe the facts and stopped. Actually kinda glad this happened since my partner is also very biased regarding “everyday sexism” since it doesn’t affect him and this was the first time he was able to see it first hand.

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- Excrubulent@slrpnk.net ⁨8⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  I didn’t want to relay this while the thread was still so hot, but I’m a large scary-guy-shaped person - I really doubt any of the guys in this thread would say any of this to my face - and I didn’t understand this until my sister asked me to tell our dad something she needed him to hear because “he’ll listen to you because you’re a man”. I said I didn’t think he was that sort of person, and she just said, “No, it’s normal for people not to listen to women.” So I told him the thing and he listened to me where he hadn’t listened to her.
  
  I was pretty shook by that, so I asked my partner if that was normal and she said “Oh, yeah,” without having to think twice about it.
  
  That’s where my journey started. After you start seeing it, you can’t stop.
  
  I also started noticing at a certain point how often women would randomly apologise for existing near me in public. Like they are clearly afraid of me. It doesn’t feel nice, but it’s never once occurred to me to yell “not all men!” or “I’m one of the good ones!” at their retreating backs.
  
  I’ve discovered - through being NB - that I can completely reverse this by even slightly feminising my appearance. I actually get random women smiling at me in public, not politely, but openly and genuinely. It makes me think of what a trans man said about how lonely it is to be a man, how he misses the camraderie of women looking out for each other. From my perspective when I’m fully man-coded I agree, men absolutely do not openly smile at me. That’s too gay, or something.
  
  I’m not worried that any bad actors will abuse this info to get women to let their guard down though, because a consequence of this is getting an absolutely appalling amount of disgust and hate from random dudes, but I consider the trade absolutely worth it when I have the energy for it.
  
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  - ComfortableRaspberry@feddit.de ⁨7⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    Thanks for sharing your story. One of my guy friends is the Hagrid Type. Big, hairy, loud. But he also tries to break through his appearance. And I think that’s the whole point:
    
    Instead of telling “not all men” it’s better (but also more difficult) to show us. Be nice. Hold other men accountable. Things can be changed but first we have to have reality.
    
    It also saddens me to hear about the manly loneliness that’s caused by the same internalized sexism. I’m glad to hear you found a way out of this, that still lets you be you!
    
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asteriskeverything@lemmy.world ⁨8⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
I was just ranting to my husband about how I got tired of being polite to men in my personal life who don’t take “no” for an answer the first time. I am exhausted after years of finding 17 different ways to politely say no to a stranger who wants something from me on any given day. I am absolutely fucking done wasting time pussyfooting my words, with the men I am safe with (for whatever reason) and uh often men I am not safe with but I have been VERY lucky to have positive outcomes there. Pure luck

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prole@sh.itjust.works ⁨8⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
I was with you until that last paragraph… Kind of a shitty thing to say.

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- Excrubulent@slrpnk.net ⁨8⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  Then you weren’t with me. These are shitty people.
  
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  - prole@sh.itjust.works ⁨8⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    Who are you referring to when you say “these”? Because it seems like you’re making judgement calls about people based entirely on whether or not they questioned your blanket generalization about literally half the population of the planet.
    
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    Excrubulent@slrpnk.net ⁨8⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    I want you to look at my comment and tell me - quote the quote please - where I said that all men are violent.
    
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gmtom@lemmy.world ⁨8⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
Genuinely not trying to be that guy, but it seems like you’re saying that because it happens to men less often than to women, we can just ignore when it happens to men. Which im sure isnt what you’re trying to say, but its the insinuation you present whenever you bring up stats like these.

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- Excrubulent@slrpnk.net ⁨8⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  Why would that be the insinuation? You’re inserting that, not me.
  
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  - gmtom@lemmy.world ⁨8⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    Because your using these stats to dismiss people saying men face domestic abuse too? I get you’re doing it because those people arent arguing in good faith, but its still ultimately you insinuating "men dont face DA as much of women, so they dont matter.
    
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    Excrubulent@slrpnk.net ⁨8⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    You are the first person to even bring that up.
    
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feedum_sneedson@lemmy.world ⁨8⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
God, yeah, all women are wonderful and all men are bad. That’s certainly been my life experience.

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- MentalEdge@sopuli.xyz ⁨8⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  That’s not really the point.
  
  If a good man has a woman turn violent on him, odds are he has a physical advantage and will be able to deal with it. It shouldn’t have to happen that way but he can probably keep himself safe.
  
  Flip that around, and as a woman, even if 99.99% of men will take it completely calmly, the small chance that you’re dealing with that 0.01% who will flip out and try to hurt you the second things don’t go his way, is fucking terrifying.
  
  Especially if you’re smaller than average and dealing with someone bigger than average, the smart thing is to not just risk it. No, it doesn’t feel good when a girl assumes the worst about me, but I get it, so I don’t take it personally.
  
  I can know I would never turn my strength and size to hurting to someone, she cannot.
  
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  - feedum_sneedson@lemmy.world ⁨8⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    I don’t disagree, having been attacked by… three women.
    
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    MentalEdge@sopuli.xyz ⁨8⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    The exact same considerations apply. If you’re in a situation where others could physically overpower you, you tend to try avoid doing anything that gives anyone reason to do so if that occurring is even the tiniest possibility.
    
    When it comes to ones own bodily safety, other considerations become secondary, whether that’s fair or not.
    
    It’s not matter of “all of them are like that” but of playing it safe.
    
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rottingleaf@lemmy.zip ⁨8⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
“n in m women said that they …” and “p in q men said that they …” would be more correct.

You are comparing apples to oranges. If women and men were treated the same by the society and thus would report actual events with the same probability, then you could compare these.

How many men would admit they experienced emotional abuse were that the case? A rhetorical question. Like a half of them or more wouldn’t.

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- Excrubulent@slrpnk.net ⁨8⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  Ah, yes, emotional abuse, the only thing on this list.
  
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  - rottingleaf@lemmy.zip ⁨8⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    I don’t see my argument being limited to emotional abuse in any way, and an example doesn’t have to cover all cases.
    
    TLDR, you don’t look smart.
    
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    Excrubulent@slrpnk.net ⁨8⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    So to be clear: you think that domestic violence against men could be similar to domestic violence against women, for instance? Are you actually saying that?
    
    There’s a reason you singled out emotional abuse, because if you mentioned any of the other kinds, it would be pretty obvious how silly your argument was, wouldn’t it?
    
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JoShmoe@ani.social ⁨8⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
I believe this is directly related to many women being more empathetic. Many guys are not violent.

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- Excrubulent@slrpnk.net ⁨8⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  This is a repackaging of “not all men”.
  
  The problem with “not all men” is that there is an obvious follow up question: “which men?”
  
  If you can’t answer that fast enough to determine if you’re dealing with a violent man, then “not all men” is meaningless to a woman who is trying to not get killed.
  
  Also, you’re basically saying women don’t think about this. I wonder what kind of answers you’d get if actually aske any about this.
  
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  - ddkman@lemm.ee ⁨8⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    Can I use this fantastic opinion to back racism as well, or is is exclusively reserved for sexism? Thanks?
    
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    Excrubulent@slrpnk.net ⁨8⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    Let’s apply this logic to racism!
    
    Black men usually get the talk at a very young age that they need to be super careful in every interaction with police or else they might be killed.
    
    Now, not all cops are trying to kill black men in traffic stops. But if you don’t know which cops will kill you on the flimsiest pretext, then this isn’t terribly useful to a black man trying not to get killed.
    
    Tell me, is it “racist” of these black men to be concerned about being killed by cops?
    
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  - Kusimulkku@lemm.ee ⁨8⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    This is the sort of logic I’ve seen people use to justify racism. “Not all of them of course but enough, I’m just being careful”.
    
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    Excrubulent@slrpnk.net ⁨8⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    Tell me, do you know how likely women are to be killed by men vs the other way around?
    
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- wesker@lemmy.sdf.org ⁨8⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
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  - feedum_sneedson@lemmy.world ⁨8⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    I prefer to think of them as heuristics, but this one isn’t very true, you’re right.
    
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    wesker@lemmy.sdf.org ⁨8⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
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Kusimulkku@lemm.ee ⁨8⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
From the pic I didn’t assume this was gender specific

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Big giant /S