Comment on I'm right and the other vegans are wrong

OwOarchist@pawb.social ⁨10⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

• ccunning@lemmy.world ⁨9⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

  Not a vegan but I am surprised to learn there is a debate amongst vegans about honey.

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  • wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyz ⁨5⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    Honey is an animal byproduct, so technically it is non-vegan, but I think that’s kind of pedantic because the bees (ideally) aren’t harmed by the apiaries, and the relationships is more of symbiosis rather than exploitation.

    I’ve tried explaining this to vegans and they get really hostile about how apiaries are bee slavery and we need to abolish all forms of subjugation and exploitation, and that I’m a colonialist pig for not seeing it that way.

    They also talk about some of the problems with large-scale apiary practices. But those problems are very much known within beekeeping communities, and the average small-time beekeeper is as upset as any vegan about giant corporate monocultures spreading parasites and diseases.

    The beekeepers are also very active in trying to solve that problem by regulating large-scale apiary practices, monitoring bee colonies, medicating, funding (and participating in) research, etc… All stuff that most vegans couldn’t be bothered to do.

    It’s a bit like being against backyard chickens because Tyson and Perdue are an evil industrial ag duopoly.

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    • Spur4383@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      So… they saw the bee movie and considered a documentary?

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    • ccunning@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      Do/can domesticated bees swarm/rewild?

      If so it seems like it would be the best argument that bee keeping was mutually consensual.

      It’s a bit like being against backyard chickens because Tyson and Perdue are an evil industrial ag duopoly

      Are there apiary industry standards/certifications? It seems unlikely most folks are buying the backyard chicken version of honey.

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      • wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyz ⁨5⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

        Do/can domesticated bees swarm/rewild?

        It is possible. When a colony grows too large for the hive it produces a new queen and then splits itself in half. Usually beekeepers who monitor their colonies notice this and start a new hive, but if left to do their own thing (and if there’s not a queen trap on the entrance) then one of the queens will take half the colony and go search for a place to build a new hive.

        If so it seems like it would be the best argument that bee keeping was mutually consensual.

        I generally agree, but how do you define that? You can’t exactly get a bee to sign a legal document. Sure you could opt against using a queen trap, and make your hive as enticing as possible so they stay. A good apiary will provide ideal conditions, and cultuvate botanical and herb gardens in the immediate surroundings. Basically make it a paradise for bees, and give them medicine too.

        Just because some people abuse their dogs doesn’t mean pet-keeping as a whole should be damned. Punish the abusers and prevent the abuse as much as you can. But don’t take away granny’s sweet little shitzu just because Dale down the street kicks his pit.

        Are there apiary industry standards/certifications?

        That unfortunately depends on the state. Some do a better job than others.

        It seems unlikely most folks are buying the backyard chicken version of honey.

        Yes but try asking a vegan “Is it fine if I only choose local honey?”

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  • 9point6@lemmy.world ⁨9⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    I’m not at all, vegan as a personal trait is a bit of a broad church these days.

    There’s the people that are mostly motivated by the not-killing-animals thing

    Then there’s the ones doing it predominantly for environmental reasons

    Then you’ve got the ones doing it for various health reasons

    Then you’ve got people doing it predominantly for cost reasons (fewer here, given vegan is still treated as a luxury aspect in a lot of food categories)

    Those groups do not have to overlap in views at all. It’s entirely expected for there to be disagreement and purity test drama given that IMO

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    • igmelonh@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨8⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      Yeah, I’m not in any vegan groups but I’ve seen (what is hopefully) a vocal online minority of those who use the label for killing-is-wrong reasons angrier at folks using it for any other reason than they are at folks who do consume animal products, insisting that the other camps should use “plant-based (diet)” instead.

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  • kestrel7_7@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    I’ve known people who called themselves vegan and still ate fish, there are basically no rules

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    • wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyz ⁨5⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      That’s pescatarian, not vegan. Whoever said that was wrong.

      But I recognize that confidently saying something is wrong is viewed as arrogant these days. We have to respect everyone’s subjectivity, even if that means not saying anything even when they’re blatantly wrong.

      Like “No, don’t keep walking forward. There’s a cliff in front of you.” “DON’T TELL ME WHAT TO DO! YOU CAN’T CONTROL ME.”

      Toxic positivity has seeped way too far into the collective unconscious…

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      • OwOarchist@pawb.social ⁨3⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

        That’s pescatarian, not vegan. Whoever said that was wrong.

        (And for some reason, ‘vegetarian’ has gone completely out of fashion…)

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      • kestrel7_7@lemmy.world ⁨4⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

        They justified it as something to do with fish/shellfish not having the same kind of pain receptors and consciousness that “real” animals do and argued it was more akin to consuming fungi and bacteria

        I don’t agree with them, and I do agree with everything you said here. I’m just saying, based on experiences in the field, when someone says to me “I’m vegan” internally I’m like “cool, so you eat whatever you want, just like everyone else” 😂

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  • lime@feddit.nu ⁨9⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    yeah the fda classifies it as a meat product.

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    • remon@ani.social ⁨9⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      That’s just a myth spread around the internet.

      Their actual definition is:

      Reference materials in the public domain define honey as “a thick, sweet, syrupy substance that bees make as food from the nectar of plants or secretions of living parts of plants and store in honeycombs.”2 FDA has concluded that this definition accurately reflects the common usage of the term “honey

      www.fda.gov/media/110846/download

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      • lime@feddit.nu ⁨8⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

        a definition is not a classification though. how to they categorise it?

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• DarrinBrunner@lemmy.world ⁨8⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

  I did assume vegans would be majority against honey consumption.

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• Gladaed@feddit.org ⁨9⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

  The right side

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