The difference between medicine and “alternative medicine” is proof of effectiveness. If something provably works it’s medicine.
Comment on Alternative medicine
Senal@programming.dev 4 days agoIm all on the “listen to the medical experts” train.
There are however some medicines and treatments that legitimately started as “alternative”.
A lot of it is horseshit though.
Also modern medicine isn’t infallible(nor the people that practice it).
Statistically though, it’s fucking high magic compared to most internet sourced diagnoses.
Diplomjodler3@lemmy.world 4 days ago
Senal@programming.dev 4 days ago
That’s certainly a definition.
How dos that definition account for the placebo effect ?
andros_rex@lemmy.world 4 days ago
“Proof of effectiveness” means a placebo controlled trial. Preferably multiple, with sample sizes substantial enough for sufficient statistical power.
HerbGrower@slrpnk.net 4 days ago
Or we could just start selling placebo tablets and make a fortune. I have some clay in my garden that should be easy enough to shape into pill shapes. We could even paint a few of them red and sell those as extra strong.
Not hurting anyone…
Senal@programming.dev 4 days ago
ah, that makes sense.
Does that still apply if the underlying mechanism isn’t understood?
I know examples of this exist already , I’m wondering if “proof of effectiveness” really means just the effectiveness in this context.
Jarix@lemmy.world 4 days ago
I would say how doesn’t it?
A placebo is known to NOT work. That medicine has defined, understands and even utilizes the placebo effect is exactly in that definition.
Senal@programming.dev 4 days ago
It’s known to potentially have an effect , even if the actual treatment administered was known(by third parties) to be inert and the effect wasnt the one originally planned.
Thats not the same as not working at all.
This is a core part of blind tests, the whole reason you test using a placebo is to isolate the effects that can’t be attributed to the actual medicine.
fizzle@quokk.au 4 days ago
“Alternative medicine” is too broad a term to be helpful.
Senal@programming.dev 4 days ago
Yeah, I saw it after I’d posted.
I need to be more specific in how I mean “alternative” here.
What I mean is “not of the current scientific consensus” , which I realise isn’t exactly the same wording as the wikipedia definition
Thats my bad.
I also failed to mention that it also works the other way as well, where current science is discredited(fully or partially) , due to flaws in it’s methodology, reproducibility or some other reason.
fizzle@quokk.au 4 days ago
I think there are actually very few interventions which were “not of the current scientific consensus” which later became accepted medical practice.
Also I think in the current era there are practically no alternative therapies by that definition which will later become medical practice.
A salient example might be ketamine therapy. It’s been a party drug since at least the 90s but in the last several years has become a government subsidised therapy for PTSD in Australia. That doesn’t mean kids at ravfes were doing the therapy in the 90s, because the manner in which the ketamine is administered is the key to the beneficial outcome.
That said, I think the treatments a medical doctor can prescribe or even recommend are less than a third of the treatments or behaviors that can manage a chronic illness. What I mean is, if you have a chronic condition there’s (hopefully) medications that will help you manage it, but it’s the lifestyle changes that will influence your quality of life in the coming decades.
captainlezbian@lemmy.world 3 days ago
Yeah the only ones I can think of that used to be used the current medical way are cannabis for appetite and analgesia and psychadelics for ptsd and addiction. Both of these examples are obvious to anyone who’s used such substances.
Jarix@lemmy.world 4 days ago
The quote is from Tim Minchin. I think the track name is Storm.
It’s him talking to someone at a dinner party and he’s trying to bite his tongue when someone new starts talking stupidity, but it gets to a point where he breaks and goes off on a rent.
It’s a very well written and entertaining but.
What what’s missing from the quote is something along the lines of “You know what they call alternate medicine that is proven to work? Medicine”
The whole point of the quote is exactly what you are saying that some medicines legitimately started as alternative medicines
Deebster@infosec.pub 4 days ago
“Herbal medicine’s been around for thousands of years!” Indeed it has, and then we tested it all, and the stuff that worked became ‘medicine’. And the rest of it is just a nice bowl of soup and some potpourri.
From Dara Ó Briain. Also from him:
Chinese medicine, oh, Chinese medicine! “But there are billions of Chinese, Chinese medicine must be working.” Here’s the skinny on Chinese medicine. A hundred years ago the average life expectancy in China was 30. The life expectancy in China at the moment is 73. And it’s not feckin’ tiger penis that turned it around for the Chinese. Didn’t do much for the tiger, if you don’t mind me pointing out.
Viceversa@lemmy.world 4 days ago
There are however some medicines and treatments that legitimately started as “alternative”.
What are those?
CuddlyCassowary@lemmy.world 4 days ago
I think it depends how you frame this question. For example, aspirin originated from a compound in willow bark. Currently, most of us aren’t chewing on willow bark to relieve pain, but at some point that (or making willow bark teas, etc.) was the case. Whether you consider that as “alternative” depends on what point in history you ask that question.
Leeches, which are still used today, also come to mind. Modern medicine has greatly refined how they’re used, but that’s not how it started.
There are quite a few things that people noticed produced effects but didn’t understand the mechanism. Science changed that.
However, if you consider using things with known properties in a wildly irresponsible manner as the definition of “alternative medicine,” that’s a very different question.
Even when novel therapies from existing medicine do come to light at times, generally this through scientific observation and testing, not Cletus taking horse medicine.
Viceversa@lemmy.world 4 days ago
For example, aspirin originated from a compound in willow bark.
At the time mainstream medicine was rejecting use of willow bark? Or why it’s considered alternative medicine?
nymnympseudonym@piefed.social 4 days ago
Usually herbs found by ethnographers.
Aspirin, for example, IIRC discovered by a scientist investigating traditional therapeutics (tree bark)
mirshafie@europe.pub 4 days ago
My pharma professors liked to say that if Aspirin was discovered today, it would never pass the bar for human trials, because after all these years the mechanism of action isn’t properly understood.
That’s the best argument for alternative medicines that I’ve heard, and it’s also something to consider when we think about how insanely high the bar is for compounds that are approved as medicines.
Valmond@lemmy.dbzer0.com 4 days ago
Most medications are poorly understood (at best!) lol, it’s trial and error all the way down.
With some exceptions like the RNA messenger covid vaccine…
Viceversa@lemmy.world 4 days ago
because after all these years the mechanism of action isn’t properly understood.
That wasn’t a blocker with antidepressants, for better or worse.
Senal@programming.dev 4 days ago
I was also going to use aspirin as an example, but I’m also going to post a response i made to a comment further up.
Also psychedelics as a treatment for various psychological ailments.
I need to be more specific in how I mean “alternative” here.
What I mean is “not of the current scientific consensus” , which I realise isn’t exactly the same wording as the wikipedia definition
Thats my bad.
I also failed to mention that it also works the other way as well, where current science is discredited(fully or partially) , due to flaws in it’s methodology, reproducibility or some other reason.
In generalities i was thinking more of how certain branches or offshoots of what was considered to be mainstream ( or mainstream adjacent ) science were later found to be scientifically provable.
An example of this is microbes.
They were posited over the years in varied forms by multiple independent people, but they weren’t really fully accepted until the invention of a way of actually observing them.
This is largely what medicine was prior to the current , formal scientific method, local “medicine people” would have salves, cures, potions and other such concoctions passed down to apprentices, they might have some knowledge of how it works, but most of that knowledge would be in the practical application and treatment using said concoctions.
That’s not to dismiss this practice, the years of experience and experimentation (of a kind) was, in some cases, essential a precursor to modern scientific method.
There are ways of analysing effects and positing theories without fully understanding how the underlying mechanism works.
Sometimes that leads to legitimate data around the effects of a medicine or treatment being dismissed as “alternative”, at least until formal experimentation is done and verified
As i said in another reply, I’m not saying it’s common, all i was saying was that it’s a possibility.
Viceversa@lemmy.world 4 days ago
I think it’s safe to say nowadays we can rely on scientific method to find new cures, and completely abandon “alternative” medicine.
Senal@programming.dev 4 days ago
that’s the exact opposite of what i was saying.
Nowadays we can potentially evaluate what is considered “alternative” for actual benefit, and if found then elevate it to actual medical science.
If it’s not considered beneficial we can discard (for now), perhaps a fresh look later when our tooling and understanding has improved.
That way we can try to gain benefit where possible, and definitively ( for the current level of technology and resource ) suggest people kindly not overdose on de-wormer because we’ve scientifically determined it’s stupid and potentially lethal.
Jarix@lemmy.world 3 days ago
Aspirin.
Was a tincture or tea of white birch bark(I’m not 100% certain this is the right tree, but it was a tree, please correct me if I’m wrong) used as a folk medicine for generations until it got studied and the compound in it isolated by Bayer
ignotum@lemmy.world 4 days ago
The issue is that alternative forms of medicine are most often studied scientifically and either found to work (upgraded to medicine) but more often than not it is found to have no greater effect than placebo or random chance, but these alternatives continue to be practiced, meaning people end up getting ineffective care, and their money is funneled into an industry incentivised to discredit and spread distrust towards real proven medicine
Senal@programming.dev 4 days ago
Agreed,
I was positing the possibility of a move from “alternative” to “scientifically recognised”, not that it was likely to happen.
njordomir@lemmy.world 4 days ago
Well said. A balanced viewpoint that doesn’t try to be all black and white. Even the stupidest bullshit can sometimes contain a kernel of truth. That doesn’t mean the 99% bullshit isn’t any less shit.
Mediocre_Bard_Redeux@lemmy.world 4 days ago
Have friends in the medical field, a lot of time they are just sort of trying shit and then are happy it worked.
Senal@programming.dev 4 days ago
Medical science is just that, medicine that follows the scientific method. (Or at least it’s supposed to).
The scientific method is basically testing guesses (sometimes educated ones) and seeing what happens.
There’s a whole lot of structure and guidelines, but testing guesses(hypotheses) is where it’s at mostly.
The current state of any science is usually “the best theory we have right now, given the data and resources available to us”
Some people hear that and think “look, they’re just guessing, why should I listen to them?” and thats absolutely valid.
Where that falls down is that they then go on to assume all guesses are equal and ignore the time and resources that went in to that current scientific best guess.
Is it always correct? no, is it more likely to be beneficial than a random social media post by an influencer with no medical expertise? Generally yes.
Valmond@lemmy.dbzer0.com 4 days ago
The people who “guess” are guessing way down the decision tree, not like hmm is this cancer or a flu?
They also are highly trained, in a field that is centuries old.
Senal@programming.dev 4 days ago
Indeed, though I’d argue that’s an issue with modern academia as an industry rather than the scientific method itself.
Jarix@lemmy.world 3 days ago
I would expand “testing guesses” to repeatedly testing guesses. It’s a fundamental thing to be able to recreate the testing results, or it’s not science at all it’s just fuckign around lol
Senal@programming.dev 3 days ago
An important distinction.
fizzle@quokk.au 4 days ago
Most professions could be described like this, but when doctors are “trying shit” it is backed up by many years of training and education, and their behavior is scrutinised by professional bodies and so on.
When your local quack is “trying shit” it’s just based on the vibe.
fyzzlefry@retrolemmy.com 3 days ago
Am engineer and agree