“Widely debunked” is a funny way to say “I really like to downplay this”, but excluding the active genocide, China is actively yoinking and creating islands, debt trapping countries, etc
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deathmetaldawgy@lemmy.ml 3 weeks ago
oh god. Another one of these. I’ll bite. How is China imperialist. Bonus points if you don’t mention Uyghurs because that’s not imperialism and the zenz/ US propaganda has been widely debunked.
Godric@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
deathmetaldawgy@lemmy.ml 3 weeks ago
Reeducation, or even whatever label you want to put on what China is doing with Uyghur Muslims is NOT genocide and not even close. And this post is about imperialism, not genocide, and genocide IS happening to Muslim countries with the direct support of almost every western country. Debt trapping which countries? Taiwan? Snatching up islands? Wtf are you talking aboutyou?
zeejoo@thelemmy.club 3 weeks ago
Definition:
Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide
Article II
In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
Killing members of the group; Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
Reeducation camps are an effort to destroy Uighur culture and are absolutely a genocide. You don’t need gas chambers or mass extermination, that’s just one way genocide can manifest.
Detainees had no privacy. They were monitored at all times, including when they ate, slept, and used the toilet. They were forbidden to talk freely with other detainees. When detainees were permitted to speak – to other detainees, guards, or teachers – they were required to speak in Mandarin Chinese, a language many of them, especially older people and those from more rural areas in Xinjiang, did not speak or understand. Detainees were physically punished if they spoke in a language other than Mandarin.
There was insufficient food, water, exercise, healthcare, sanitary and hygienic conditions, fresh air, and exposure to natural light. Detainees had draconian restrictions placed on their ability to urinate and defecate. All detainees were required to “work” one- or two-hour shifts monitoring their cellmates every night. Many former detainees reported that during the first few days, weeks, or sometimes months after arriving at the internment camps, they were forced to do nothing but sit still – often in terribly uncomfortable positions – for nearly the entire day.
At some point after arriving nearly all detainees were subjected to highly regimented classes. The typical schedule included three or four hours of classes after breakfast. Then detainees had lunch and a short “rest”, which often involved sitting still on a stool or with their heads still on their desks. After lunch there was another three or four hours of classes and then dinner, followed by a few hours to sit or kneel on a stool and silently “review” the day’s material or to watch more “educational” videos. At nearly all times during classes, detainees were required to look straight ahead and not to speak with their classmates. Classes often involved memorizing and reciting “red” songs – that is, revolutionary songs that praise the CCP and the People’s Republic of China.
Source I highly recommend downloading and reading the whole report.
On December 9, 2021, the Tribunal delivered its judgment. In its judgment, the Tribunal established the following facts. Hundreds of thousands to over one million were arbitrarily detained and exposed to cruel, inhuman, and degrading treatment. Testimony described overcrowded cells, sometimes holding around 50 detainees in roughly 22 square meters (or 237 square feet), with little space to lie down. Detainees used buckets as toilets, monitored by Closed-Circuit Television (CCTV), with no privacy.10
Detainees were tortured without any legitimate reasons. Witnesses identified a range of torture practices, such as fingernail removal, beatings, extended immobilization in “tiger chairs,” immersion in cold water, and confinement in cages too small to stand or lie down. Multiple testimonies described long-term heavy shackles and restraints, in some cases lasting for months.11
Widespread sexual violence occurred, affecting both male and female detainees. One account described the gang rape of a young woman, about 20 or 21, in front of roughly 100 other detainees forced to watch. Female detainees faced sexual assaults with electric devices and metal rods. Some were raped by people who paid for access to detention facilities. Witnesses reported severe food deprivation (sometimes withheld as a punitive measure), solitary confinement in dark or always-lit cells, long-term sleep deprivation, and humiliation.12
Deaths were linked to abuses in detention. Testimony indicated that younger detainees were occasionally taken from cells and subsequently disappeared. However, there is no evidence of systematic mass killings. In fact, many detainees were eventually released. Some were released after three to six months, others after years of imprisonment or repeated torture, though often only to be detained again.13
Witnesses described various forms of nonphysical mistreatment, including mandatory political indoctrination where detainees were required to sing pro-CCP songs under threat of punishment. Detainees were given unidentified pills or injections, sometimes causing reproductive or psychological changes. Witnesses described unexplained blood draws and medical procedures. Testimonies included coerced abortions with some late terms, and claims of newborns killed after delivery.14
You don’t get to be against one genocide and not another. Stop being a piece of shit shill and do some research.
pivot_root@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
Good luck convincing tankies with that definition. They will just claim the definition doesn’t count because “the UN is a Western imperialist facade pushing US propaganda.” The same goes for any source that doesn’t agree with their ideals, for that matter.
PeriodicallyPedantic@lemmy.ca 3 weeks ago
Debt trapping, for example, laos.
Still a lot better than what the USA does - better to build out country’s infrastructure and then hold them ransom with the debt than bombing schools, but it doesn’t make them good or beyond criticism.
Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 weeks ago
The PRC is not debt trapping Laos, both are socialist countries with good relations.
prole@lemmy.blahaj.zone 3 weeks ago
Belt and Road Initiative is a debt trap
Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 weeks ago
China is not debt trapping poor African nations. We can see that this isn’t the case when we can observe countries in BRI engaging in rapid development and industrializing, and this is confirmed by China forgiving tons of debt. The goal of China isn’t to make countries reliant on them, or to earn money from debt, it’s because China gains personally through mutual development. Here are some articles debunking the “debt trap” myth:
There are many more examples I can use. China isn’t doing this out of the goodness of their own heart, but because they stand to gain from mutual development. A more developed global south means China is less reliant on the US Empire as a customer, provides new avenues to facilitate trade, and creates more markets for customers. The west harvests the global south for cheap labor and resources, and we can see hard comparisons in data between BRI participants and those imperialized by the west to see fundamentally different results.
Objection@lemmy.ml 3 weeks ago
creating islands
This is the funniest imperialism accusation yet.
zeejoo@thelemmy.club 3 weeks ago
How is China Imperialist
12 dash line, Belt and road is just neo-colonialism debt traps and soft power grabs, consistent threats to the sovereignty of Bhutan, Taiwan, the Phillipines and more. Financial and material aid to both sides of the conflict in Myanmar, weapon sales to Russia for use in Ukraine, etc.
You’re either incredibly dishonest or incredibly fucking stupid
nyctre@piefed.social 3 weeks ago
They’re tankies… They’re both.
Amnesigenic@lemmy.ml 3 weeks ago
Anything’s possible when you make shit up kiddo
mattyroses@lemmy.today 3 weeks ago
If selling weapons is bad, I’ve got some news for you about the US you might want to sit down for . . .
PeriodicallyPedantic@lemmy.ca 3 weeks ago
It’s like you forgot to read the question they’re answering.
Question: how is China imperialist like USA
Answer: here is how China is imperialist like USA
You: yeah, well USA does it too!
mattyroses@lemmy.today 3 weeks ago
Imperialism is selling weapons? That’s Lenin, right?
empireOfLove2@lemmy.dbzer0.com 3 weeks ago
bait = grabbed lol
deathmetaldawgy@lemmy.ml 3 weeks ago
Apparently. Summoned a storm of lib bots. Lol
Ganbat@lemmy.dbzer0.com 3 weeks ago
“People don’t agree with me? Must be bots, since I’m obviously never wrong.”
mootny@sh.itjust.works 3 weeks ago
Na bro, you just haven’t considered the fact that America bad, everyone knows that
deathmetaldawgy@lemmy.ml 3 weeks ago
dawg some of these replies straight up don’t make sense
nooch@lemmy.vg 3 weeks ago
Depends on the definition. In Lenin’s Imperialism, the highest form of capitalism, he defines five criteria:
And so, without forgetting the conditional and relative value of all definitions in general, which can never embrace all the concatenations of a phenomenon in its complete development, we must give a definition of imperialism that will include the following five of its basic features:
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the concentration of production and capital has developed to such a high stage that it has created monopolies which play a decisive role in economic life;
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the merging of bank capital with industrial capital, and the creation, on the basis of this “finance capital,” of a financial oligarchy;
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the export of capital as distinguished from the export of commodities acquires exceptional importance;
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the formation of international monopolist capitalist combines which share the world among themselves, and
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the territorial division of the whole world among the biggest capitalist powers is completed.
1 and 2 apply with some caveats, 3 and 4 are a yes (WTO, UN, BRICS, etc), and 5 should be seen through a soft-power neo colonialist lens with China’s influence in Africa for example.
This is not meant to be anti-China or whatever, anything China has done pales in comparison with US imperialism, just that I don’t think it’s a completely baseless accusation.
deathmetaldawgy@lemmy.ml 3 weeks ago
What isn’t a baseless accusation, are you talking about Taiwan? Or Tibet?
pivot_root@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
Anyone following the thread can see that the “accusation” being referred to is China being imperialist.
ThirdConsul@lemmy.zip 3 weeks ago
I believe China tries to somehow argue its not imperialistic, its multipolar, which honestly is just a spit in the face.
(A very good critique of multipolarism from a far, far far left source can be found here: spectrejournal.com/against-multipolar-imperialism…)
-
UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
How is China imperialist?
It helps if you insist the natural state of Chinese territory is a balkinized patchwork of ethnic enclaves fighting border wars “Romance of the Three Kingdoms” style, and the amalgamation of territory over 3000 years of dynastic rule gets dumped on the head of the current government.
Bonus points if you don’t mention Uyghurs
Uyghurs are the only Muslim group that the NAFO crowd are allowed to empathize with. And only when they’re local to the Tarim Basin. God help you if you’re a Uyghur living in Europe or Southeast Asia or the United States because they’re not welcome.
the zenz/ US propaganda
Mentioning the name of Adrian Zenz, the history of the Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation (and where it gets its money), or any choice passages from the book Worthy to Escape: Why All Believers Will Not Be Raptured Before the Tribulation marks you out as a Wumao Far-Left Ultra-Stalinist Botfarm with cooties and a stupid face.
deathmetaldawgy@lemmy.ml 3 weeks ago
What
Amnesigenic@lemmy.ml 3 weeks ago
Chickenshit mods
xx3rawr@sh.itjust.works 3 weeks ago
I’ll bite too. I live in the Philippines. I’m too stressed to even think about how impossibly cheap Chinese imports have displaced local industries. Walmart style.
We have a long mostly harmless history with local Chinese entrepreneurs, but I’m talking about CCP-sponsored conglomerates and drug, gambling, and troll farms planted just around metros.
It’s mostly soft power and undercover for now, but if the US isn’t looking, we’d be Belarus to Russia.
Sike it’s not all softpower, we have the fucking South China Sea.
Riverside@reddthat.com 3 weeks ago
US imperialism: we bombed the fuck out of your country and enslaved your people installing a fascist dictatorship and supported it for 30 years
Chinese “imperialism”: oh no, consumer goods are too cheap!
xx3rawr@sh.itjust.works 3 weeks ago
Lol missed the point. If other powers aren’t watching, they’d do the same. For now they “only” do these (on top of my head):
- debt traps
- economic imperialism
- install mass murdering/genocidal politicians and spies
- kill unarmed fishermen and get away with it
- ram our coast guard boats with their navy ships
- smuggle drugs and human trafficking, then cast death penalty only to the coerced deliveryman
- the thing with AI data centers in the USA, but replace AI with illegal online gambling. Oh, and promote gambming addicition, of course
You know, things that won’t catch international attention but slowly but surely are fucking us up
Riverside@reddthat.com 3 weeks ago
debt traps
China literally has a well established history of debt forgiving, you’re projecting what the western IMF actually does.
economic imperialism
China’s trade balance is net positive towards exports by like $1tn yearly? It’s literally not extracting the resources from anyone else, you’re literally making this up, projection again
install mass murdering/genocidal politicians and spies
More projection. Suharto was propped up by the US, he was the one mass-murdering communists in Indonesia.
kill unarmed fishermen and get away with it
More projection, the US was doing this recently against Venezuelan fishermen, literally fucking bombing people. You’re falling for US propaganda.
ram our coast guard boats with their navy ships
Oh no, a sovereign nation doesn’t want its seas to be blockaded by US-aligned forces!
smuggle drugs and human trafficking
Again projection, the ones with the opium plantations in Afghanistan were the US, there’s no evidence of any such systematic acts by China, drugs are extremely prohibited in China.
the thing with AI data centers in the USA, but replace AI with illegal online gambling. Oh, and promote gambming addicition, of course
Not aware of this, but again, you’re literally spelling out the name of the nation whose imperialism you’re projecting.
You’ve been propagandized against China when it was literally the US maintaining a military dictatorship in your fucking country killing a million communists.
prole@lemmy.blahaj.zone 3 weeks ago
Belt and Road Initiative
Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 weeks ago
China is not debt trapping poor African nations. We can see that this isn’t the case when we can observe countries in BRI engaging in rapid development and industrializing, and this is confirmed by China forgiving tons of debt. The goal of China isn’t to make countries reliant on them, or to earn money from debt, it’s because China gains personally through mutual development. Here are some articles debunking the “debt trap” myth:
There are many more examples I can use. China isn’t doing this out of the goodness of their own heart, but because they stand to gain from mutual development. A more developed global south means China is less reliant on the US Empire as a customer, provides new avenues to facilitate trade, and creates more markets for customers. The west harvests the global south for cheap labor and resources, and we can see hard comparisons in data between BRI participants and those imperialized by the west to see fundamentally different results.
8oow3291d@feddit.dk 3 weeks ago
Have you ever heard of Tibet?
Serinus@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
Hong Kong? Taiwan?
8oow3291d@feddit.dk 3 weeks ago
China has been acting like shit in Hong Kong, but it was originally Chinese territory. So I wouldn’t count that as imperialism.
China’s behavior in the South China Sea is a much better example.
anotherspinelessdem@lemmy.ml 3 weeks ago
Hong Kong, the place leased to Britain (probably unfairly/forcibly given British history) and subsequently returned to China at the end of the lease?
Dearth@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
Taiwan? You mean the city where all the landlords fled from Mao’s revolution and have been propped up by western imperialists powers ever since?
PeriodicallyPedantic@lemmy.ca 3 weeks ago
Literal definition of “no true Scotsman”
deathmetaldawgy@lemmy.ml 3 weeks ago
If you think what China does to Muslims is bad you should see what Taiwan was like before China invaded. Seriously look up how they treated their criminals.
lugal@sopuli.xyz 3 weeks ago
You sound like people claiming the US invaded Afghanistan to save the women
pivot_root@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
Whataboutism
deathmetaldawgy@lemmy.ml 3 weeks ago
Yes? Yes?
Objection@lemmy.ml 3 weeks ago
How are y’all still upset that your little slave-owning, theocratic warlord state got liberatated 70 years ago?
8oow3291d@feddit.dk 3 weeks ago
The excuse of every imperialist. Even using the word “liberated”. Yellow man’s burden?
Objection@lemmy.ml 3 weeks ago
Damn, that’s racist. Can’t help yourself but call them yellow, can you?
It’s not imperialist to liberate your own country from serfdom or slavery. Would you look at the northern states in the US liberating the slaves in the south and accuse people who supported that of “White Man’s Burden” shit? What a load of racist bullshit and slavery apologia.
catsarebadpeople@sh.itjust.works 3 weeks ago
Hey it’s OBJECTION being up voted by their own alt accounts again! What a loser lol
Objection@lemmy.ml 3 weeks ago
Lol, sure buddy.
Riverside@reddthat.com 3 weeks ago
Have you ever asked Tibetan people what they believe? There is literally not any significant Tibet independence movement within China, Tibet is its own autonomous region in China with special rights and higher autonomy than most other provinces, and the culture, religion and language are respected.
deathmetaldawgy@lemmy.ml 3 weeks ago
Yes?