#StopKilligGames update: Finland just passed the threshold.

Submitted ⁨⁨4⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago⁩ by ⁨Vittelius@feddit.org⁩ to ⁨gaming@beehaw.org⁩

https://feddit.org/pictrs/image/6dabb97b-01e4-4126-85c4-b17c69361b4f.png

The initiative is at than 20% of the 1 million signatures necessary.

As of 4 pm CEST the numbers are:

Country	Number of Signatures	Percentage of the theshold
Austria	4,187	31.26%
Belgium	7,116	48.06%
Bulgaria	2,764	23.06%
Croatia	2,527	29.87%
Cyprus	288	6.81%
Czechia	4,690	31.68%
Denmark	7,684	77.85%
Estonia	1,827	37.02%
Finland	10,266	104.01%
France	16,732	30.04%
Germany	45,688	67.51%
Greece	2,469	16.68%
Hungary	4,509	30.46%
Ireland	4,680	51.06%
Italy	7,949	14.84%
Latvia	1,569	27.82%
Lithuania	3,109	40.09%
Luxembourg	430	10.17%
Malta	279	6.6%
Netherlands	15,999	78.25%
Poland	20,517	55.97%
Portugal	5,019	33.9%
Romania	7,917	34.03%
Slovakia	2,773	28.1%
Slovenia	1,478	26.21%
Spain	16,261	39.09%
Sweden	13,698	92.52%
Total	212.425	21,24%

To be successful the initiative needs to reach 1 million signatures and pass the threshold in at least seven countries.

eci.ec.europa.eu/045/public/#/screen/home/allcoun…

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Comments

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AnEilifintChorcra@sopuli.xyz ⁨4⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
Even if your coutry reaches 100% and you haven’t signed, please still do incase some signatures are invalid

TIP – It is better to collect more signatures than required. Sometimes the national authorities might not be able to validate all the statements of support you provide.

citizens-initiative.europa.eu/how-it-works_en

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- Vittelius@feddit.org ⁨4⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  Also just getting 100% in 7 countries is not ging to be enough to reach 1 million votes total.
  
  So you should keep signing it either way. Every vote still counts
  
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t3rmit3@beehaw.org ⁨4⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
This would literally be my dream.

I’m so nostalgia-driven, I can’t bring myself to play most MMOs because I feel like they’ll die and I’ll losev access to that “world”. If I knew that I could run a private server once the official ones shut down, it would completely change my outlook.

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- Zorsith@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨4⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  Privat servers and exportable characters, I’d be pissed if all the work I put into a character was gone.
  
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  - nekusoul@lemmy.nekusoul.de ⁨4⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    At the very least, a save game editor wouldn’t be too hard to create when running your own server.
    
    Though that got me thinking if there’s some kind of GDPR shenanigans one could already utilize to get all your account data.
    
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  - t3rmit3@beehaw.org ⁨4⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    That would definitely be nice, but if you control the server you can (re)build whatever character you want.
    
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Boomkop3@reddthat.com ⁨4⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
Heck yea! Getting closer! Keep up telling everyone

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ubergeek77@lemmy.ubergeek77.chat ⁨4⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
People need to understand what this will mean from a developer perspective before getting all up in arms. This initiative is more kneejerk emotional than it is realistic.

If you’re going to watch only one of these videos, watch the second one:

youtu.be/ioqSvLqB46Y

youtu.be/x3jMKeg9S-s

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- pupbiru@aussie.zone ⁨4⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  what this requires from developers: possibly documenting protocols in an open way when they choose to shut down games so that people can re-implement FOSS servers
  
  “playable” is open to interpretation, and does not include trademarks, copyright, etc… nobody is asking for to allow assets to be traded (ie piracy), or open sourcing any code
  
  but if you have purchased a game, and the servers for that game go away, someone else should be able to re-implement a method for allowing those games to continue being played
  
  … also if DRM servers go away, you should disable the DRM somehow: you don’t get to just say that the DRM and therefor the game isn’t available any more
  
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- Maven@lemmy.zip ⁨4⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  The guy who started it and other people helping push it have also responded and talked about how Thor doesn’t entirely get it/missed the point.
  
  Here’s Ross’s entire response pasted because it got buried on the video.
  
  “I’m afraid you’re misunderstanding several parts of our initiative. We want as many games as possible to be left in some playable state upon shutdown, not just specifically targeted ones. The Crew was justa convenient example to take action on, it represents hundreds of games that have already been destroyed in a similar manner and hundreds more"at risk” of being destroyed. We’re not looking at the advertising being the primary bad practice, but the preventable destruction of videogames themselves.
  
  This isn’t about killing live service games (quite the opposite!), it’s primarily about mandating future live service games have an end of life plan from the design phase onward. For existing games, that gets much more complicated, I plan to have a video on that later. So live service games could continue operating in the future same as now, except when they shutdown, they would be handled similarly to Knockout City, Gran Turismo Sport, Scrolls, Ryzom, Astonia, etc. as opposed to leaving the customer with absolutely nothing.
  
  A key component is how the game is sold and conveyed to the player. Goods are generally sold as one time purchases and you can keep them indefinitely. Services are generally sold with a clearly stated expiration date. Most “Live service” games do neither of these. They are often sold as a one-time purchase with no statement whatsoever about the duration, so customers can’t make an informed decision, it’s gambling how long the game lasts. Other industries would face legal charges for operating this way. This could likely be running afoul of EU law even without the ECI, that’s being tested.
  
  The EU has laws on EULAS that ban unfair or one-sided terms. MANY existing game EULAS likely violate those. Plus, you can put anything in a EULA. The idea here is to take removal of individual ownership of a game off the table entirely.
  
  We’re not making a distinction between preservation of multiplayer and single player and neither does the law. We fail to find reasons why a 4v4 arena game like Nosgoth should be destroyed permanently when it shuts down other than it being deliberately designed that way with no recourse for the customer.
  
  As for the reasons why think this initiative could pass, that’s my cynicism bleeding though. think what we’re doing is pushing a good cause that would benefit millions of people through an imperfect system where petty factors of politicians could be a large part of what determines its success or not. Democracy can be a messy process and was acknowledging that. I’m not championing these flawed factors, but rather saying think our odds are decent.
  
  Finally, while your earlier comments towards me were far from civil, don’t wish you any ill will, nor do encourage anyone to harass you. I and others still absolutely disagree with you on the necessity of saving games, but I wanted to be clear causing you trouble is not something I nor the campaign seeks at all. Personally, I think you made your stance clear, you’re not going to change your mind, so people should stop bothering you about it."
  
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- PonyOfWar@pawb.social ⁨4⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  Really doesn’t matter whether the proposal as it is in the petition is completely realistic or not. The point is to get this topic into the EU parliament. It’ll be their job to work out a solution that works for both consumers and developers.
  
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  - squidspinachfootball@lemm.ee ⁨4⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    The first video does address this idea - time stamped for convenience. Basically it’s starting the wrong conversation, without enough nuance to a group of people that may not understand the nuance of the gaming industry. Could end up with more bad than good, as gov’t has done by accident before. I recommend a watch of those two videos, I probably haven’t summed it up very well and out of context clips aren’t necessarily a good representation either. PirateSoftware’s a good speaker imo, easy to listen to.
    
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- chameleon@fedia.io ⁨4⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  Eh, no. "I'm going to make things annoying for you until you give up" is literally something already happening, Titanfall and the like suffered from it hugely. "I'm going to steal your stuff and sell it" is a tale old as time, warez CDs used to be commonplace; it's generally avoided by giving people a way to buy your thing and giving people that bought the thing a way to access it. The situation where a third party profits off your game is more likely to happen if you don't release server binaries! For example, the WoW private/emulator server scene had a huge problem with people hoarding scripts, backend systems and bugfixes, which is one of the reasons hosted servers could get away with fairly extreme P2W.
  
  And he seems to completely misunderstand what happens to IP when a studio shuts down. Whether it's bankruptcy or a planned closure, it will get sold off just like a laptop owned by the company would and the new owner of the rights can enforce on it if they think it's useful. Orphan works/"abandonware" can happen, just like they can to non-GaaS games and movies, but that's a horrible failing on part of the company.
  
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- onlinepersona@programming.dev ⁨4⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  PirateSoftware was a blizzard dev, is a current dev, and is just basically lobbying against change. I don’t believe he’s being genuine in his arguments and is misrepresenting the cause or hasn’t understood it. It was possible to make games that didn’t stop working once a server shut down and it still is.
  
  Being given a server binary isn’t a licensing issue unless you make it one. And because publishers and studios sign shitty contracts, doesn’t make it right, nor the only way to do business.
  
  Anti Commercial-AI license
  
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  - nekusoul@lemmy.nekusoul.de ⁨4⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    Agree. I don’t know this person, but at best he didn’t understand the campaign and overdosed on defeatism. At worst he’s intentionally misrepresenting the campaign and lobbying against better consumer rights.
    
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- GoodEye8@lemm.ee ⁨4⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  I usually agree with Thor but on this one I probably couldn’t disagree more. Based on what he says I’d say his mindset is completely opposite to what his initiative wants to do. He essentially said he doesn’t see any value in (live service) games after they’ve reached their end of service and from that perspective I can understand how this movement is pointless or even potentially damaging. But that assumes that the (live service) game loses value after the company stops supporting it and I just don’t think that’s the case.
  
  A lot of games continue live despite the company ending official support for them. If anyone remembers there’s a gem called Wildstar that was shut down in 2018. Despite the game being shut down and even trademark has expiring people are still running the game on private servers. People are putting in sweat and tears to make sure a game is preserved. Imagine how much easier it would be if Carbine or NcSoft had released proper tools for it. Even Vanilla WoW exists because private server did it first and Blizzard wanted to get some of that money.
  
  And another point that Thor made how it’s not about preservation because you can’t preserve a moment in time. I think that’s a completely disingenuous argument because it feeds into FOMO. If you join WoW today you will never experience “the golden age of WoW”. Maybe another game you might be interested in is having a golden age right now, better buy into the hype. You can’t argue against preservation like this because it’s literally impossible to preserve a moment in time except in your memory so you have be at that exact place at that exact time to really experience that thing, that is FOMO at it’s purest form. That argument against preservation is an argument in favor of FOMO.
  
  Thors points come for a belief that live service games don’t need to be preserved after official support has ended, and he views this initiative through that lens. Of course he will have issues with the initiative because he’s opposing the idea at a fundamental level. It’s like asking a racist how to be more tolerant with other races, the answer obviously is that you shouldn’t want to tolerate other races. And just like you would ignore a racist I think you should ignore what Thor has to say on this matter because anything he says is against the idea of preservation.
  
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  - xthexder@l.sw0.com ⁨4⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    
    But that assumes that the (live service) game loses value after the company stops supporting it
    
    Well yeah. Obviously the game losses value BECAUSE it’s not being supported anymore. There’s no value in a paperweight.
    
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- kibiz0r@midwest.social ⁨4⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  It’s worth checking out Louis Rossmann’s take too: youtu.be/TF4zH8bJDI8
  
  I rarely ever find myself disagreeing with either of them, so this is an interesting situation.
  
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  - Default_Defect@midwest.social ⁨4⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    All I’m gonna say about Rossman is that he gives me the same Ick that Mr Beast has given me since long before the allegations about him hit. So far my gut has never been wrong about people that make me feel this way.
    
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- ImplyingImplications@lemmy.ca ⁨4⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  I’m a vegetarian. If I asked everyone to sign an initiative called “stop killing animals” that sought to make it illegal to sell animal products wouldn’t that make me a dick for trying to dictate what companies can sell and what people can consume? You think it’s morally wrong to shut down an online game. I think it’s morally wrong to eat an animal.
  
  There’s nothing wrong with voicing your opinion, but trying to push through a law that conforms to your moral view of the world is weird. It’s exactly the same mentality of people who want it to the the law that the ten commandments are in every classroom.
  
  I’m fine with having more consumer protection and making it clear if a company is selling ownership or temporary access. Right now it’s often not clear and that is definitely an issue. But completely making the sale of temporary access illegal is just strange. If you dont agree to temporary access, then don’t buy it. There are many games that are being sold DRM free, you own them completely, and they’ll work forever. Nobody is forcing anyone to buy something they don’t agree with.
  
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  - Pheta@fedia.io ⁨4⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    I'm sorry this is so off-kilter that I'm not sure what mental hoops you jumped through to end up like that. Laws are made entirely on morals. It's why murder is illegal, theft is illegal, and insider trading is illegal. It's always been about morality, and the key here is to get enough people to agree with you that it becomes a general consensus among the general public, or at least make it widespread enough to have it be important for the lawmakers.
    
    You could create an initiative called "stop killing animals", and you wouldn't be a dick, you'd just be another extremist vegetarian. It's not hard to see where vegetarians got the reputation from. If you tried to insist you hold a moral high ground without clearly explaining why you think something is wrong, and got angry that people don't agree with you, then you'd be a dick.
    
    The whole point is getting people to agree to these morals, and its difficult due to how entrenched a lot of people are in their own heads or scriptures. But the fact that the initiative is pulling these kinds of numbers proves that it's not being a dick to ask for laws to back up customer rights that people feel are being violated.
    
    As far as what you're saying here:
    
    I'm fine with having more consumer protection and making it clear if a company is selling ownership or temporary access. Right now it's often not clear and that is definitely an issue. But completely making the sale of temporary access illegal is just strange.
    
    I'm unsure of what you mean by 'temporary access'. Are you referring to the practice where corporations are trying to take advantage of selling licenses for games? Courts in the US have ruled that if you bought a license, you own that copy of the license as it typically took the form of a storage media- like a game cartridge or a DVD. The only difference in modern day is that computers and storage media are cheaper than ever, so laws haven't caught up with digital distribution.
    
    Companies abuse this legal loophole by not damaging the 'license' for the game that you own, but by making the contents of the 'license' defunct and inoperable. That's a heavily legal gray zone, even back in the early 2000's, and the only reason they get away with it is because the average citizen doesn't have the income to dispute these obvious violations of consumer rights due to income disparity. They know that, and it emboldens them.
    
    As far as this part:
    
    If you dont agree to temporary access, then don't buy it. There are many games that are being sold DRM free, you own them completely, and they'll work forever. Nobody is forcing anyone to buy something they don't agree with.
    
    I'm not sure if this is your honest thoughts, or put out there in good faith even. The argument 'just don't buy it' is reductive and fails to address the problem. It always has been, and always will be. It's the equivalent of 'just find a better job', 'just earn more money', or other bootstrap advice. The free market is incapable of policing itself. If your belief is that voting with your wallet is effective, that just shows how uneducated you truly are.
    
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  - xthexder@l.sw0.com ⁨4⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    My understanding is that this would force games to be sold as either a good (lasts forever) or a service (lasts a specific, advertized amount of time). It does not prevent service games from existing, it just stops them being sold as goods with an unspecified expiration date. The problem is consumers are uninformed about the lifetime of the game they are purchasing.
    
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  - t3rmit3@beehaw.org ⁨4⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    
    trying to push through a law that conforms to your moral view of the world is weird. It’s exactly the same mentality of people who want it to be the law that the ten commandments are in every classroom.
    
    I’m sorry to tell you, but both sides of a given moral stance… are moral views. Someone’s morals push them to dictate having the 10 Commandments in classrooms. My morals push me to oppose that happening.
    
    All laws entail a moral viewpoint, either directly, or as a simple function of attempting to do what is “right”: something as simple as defining the safe PPM of a chemical in drinking water is only done because we believe it is right to provide clean drinking water.
    
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- squidspinachfootball@lemm.ee ⁨4⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  Good videos, I enjoyed both of them. The initiative comes from a good place but could use a little more work before being brought to gov’t, if that’s the best place for it.
  
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  - imnapr@discuss.tchncs.de ⁨4⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    Imo it doesn’t though. Thor misreads this as a legal document, but it is not, this is initiative, which is essentially to get the conversation started. If you’ll look at other initiatives, you’ll find they read pretty similarly. Stop trying to poke flaws in it like it’s a legal document, because it isn’t and isn’t meant to be!
    
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Comment105@lemm.ee ⁨4⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
Few Eastern and Southern Europeans give a shit, Northern Europeans are all in, way more votes per capita. Sweden rallying together a whopping 0.13% of the country.

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- bread@feddit.nl ⁨4⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  I don’t know whether it is the case, but it could be because those places have fewer English speakers, so they’re more difficult to reach.
  
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  - nekusoul@lemmy.nekusoul.de ⁨4⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    Looking at this map there seems to be at least some correlation. There really needs to be popular advocates for each language and country, particularly for the smaller ones and those with a low english speaking population.
    
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- MayonnaiseArch@beehaw.org ⁨4⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  It’s almost certainly a matter of reach. Eastern and Southern Europeans are poor compared to the others and we definitely do give a shit when somebody steals our shit
  
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Imprudent3449@lemm.ee ⁨4⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
The amount of work he is putting into this is really impressive. Being from the US it kind of sucks to see his play out in every country but ours. Is 'merica just a lost cause or is there something else we can do here?

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- Beaver@lemmy.ca ⁨4⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  Get ranked choice voting, breakup monopolies and overturn citizen’s united.
  
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- TexMexBazooka@lemm.ee ⁨4⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  Watch, educate, vote and if all else fails, leave
  
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rotkehle@feddit.org ⁨4⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
let’s gooooo!

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Servais@discuss.tchncs.de ⁨4⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
Thanks, crossposted to !yurop@lemm.ee

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Banichan@dormi.zone ⁨4⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
Hubris

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- Vittelius@feddit.org ⁨4⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  ?
  
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