I’m going to give a longer explanation than was already given.
So, imagine yourself at a hospital. You’re about to have a minor surgery, and get knocked out. While you’re under, some nurse comes in and fucks you in the ass.
Is that rape?
Switch things up. You’re at a bar, having a good time, someone slips something in your drink. While you’re under the influence of that hit of whatever, they take you into the bathroom and fuck you in the ass, and you agreed to that, you may even like it.
Is that rape?
On a fundamental level, if someone is visibly drunk, or even olfactorily drunk (meaning your can smell the booze on them), they are in a state of mind that is the same as being drugged. It doesn’t matter if they are initiating contact, they are unable to give meaningful consent.
Now, if you want to argue we need another term instead of rape, I’m okay with that. We can call it whatever. But we have statutory rape already, which exists because we recognize that even when someone is the initiator, there are states of mind and being that simply can’t make a choice to have sex in a meaningful way. So using the term rape for violating meaningful consent is fine, even when it’s an adult, and even when they initiate.
I am also aware that there are edge cases where consenting before consuming a substance could/should count as meaningful consent. And I’m aware that there is a range of inebriation where meaningful consent is still possible. However it is nearly impossible to tell without testing what a person’s blood alcohol level is, so we’re limited. That in turn means that the standard for (at least colloquial usage) what is and isn’t inebriated rape has to be broader than it would be if we had reliable testing on the fly.
I also agree with your point that she was ignoring consent, and being an absolutely horrible person, and if she had persisted by force or coercion and he had given in, I wouldn’t accept her being drunk as a defense against any charges brought.
But there’s a fundamental inability to consent when drunk. How drunk? That’s something that would need to be addressed by medical science and then legislated. What’s the maximum BAC someone can give meaningful consent for other things? But that fact is there, that alcohol serves to break down the ability to consent, and sex without consent is considered rape, on at least a colloquial level, if not always on a legal level everywhere.
Rekorse@sh.itjust.works 2 months ago
I think you argued that if the night ended in sex, they both would have raped each other?
Is it rape because she would have gotten him to go against his morals for a short time?
The story seemed to imply she wasnt physically capable of forcing sex, she was trying to appeal to his sexual urges.
I do understand drunk people commiting crimes is a thing and they should be responsible for that, but this specific case, I don’t know it was possible for her to be the raper.
I don’t disagree with you but its hard to reconcile that being drunk makes someone both not responsible and responsible for their actions at the same time.
southsamurai@sh.itjust.works 2 months ago
No, that is not what I argued. I said that if she used force or coercion, she would have raped him.
Coercion is the use of social, emotional, or other non physical means to cause a person to act against their will.
Rape is not always an act of physical force. You didn’t say that it was, I’m just repeating it for general purpose.
The night ending in sex would have meant that she sobered up, expressed her consent and intent, then he agreed to sex.
It is kinda possible for two people to rape each other, but there’s a shit-ton of stretching of the term, plus very unlikely situations to make it so. Even then, there would be a ton of argument about it from anyone not involved.
I think you either misunderstood, I phrased things badly, or my dyslexia + poor proofreading via tts screwed something up. I can’t find any errors, so I have to assume the first two.
There are a ton of ways to use non physical force on someone, and most of them can not only be done while drunk, but the inhibition being depressed via alcohol could make someone more likely to use them.
That is not the same thing as attempting to convince someone to have sex with you by using your physical appearance, the offer of sex (or specific sex acts), or even just by being an asshole and not leaving them alone. As shitty as nagging at someone for sex is, it hasn’t the same thing as rape, so long as the person being the target is capable of consent and has freedom to leave.
untorquer@lemmy.world 2 months ago
Yet another factor is the power dynamic between a sober person and someone under the influence.
Rekorse@sh.itjust.works 2 months ago
Did she not try to sway his emotions through coercion? She didnt take no for an answer initially.
southsamurai@sh.itjust.works 2 months ago
If there are no consequences to saying no, it isn’t coercive. It’s the difference between begging and saying “if you don’t, I’ll threat”
The threat can be minor, something like “I’ll tell everyone you’re a lousy lay” all the way up to “I’ll tell everyone you raped me” or less direct like “I’ll stop paying the car payment”, or “I’ll evict you”.
But, as nasty as not taking no and backing off immediately is, it isn’t the same as coercion or force. Even being very pushy about it, even using physical contact isn’t coercion, though whether or not such behavior should be illegal is an interesting possibility. The difference is whether or not the target of the “seduction” can walk away freely.
If they can, if they can enforce their no and leave, even if they don’t exert that ability, or isn’t coercive, just douchey.
Now, there is another issue in there. Some people may not believe they can freely and safely exit. That’s part of why when someone says no, everything stops, period. Other people may freeze up and be unable to exit, despite having the freedom to, which is another reason we have to make sure that we not only exhibit good sexual behaviors, but teach those ethics whenever needed.
But as far as something being rape or not, that is the ultimate determinant, the freedom of the person to say no, and exit the situation. Legally, it may well not matter if the person nagging the other for sex is aware of the target wanting to exit, but having internal barriers preventing it. That’s something laws and juries have to deal with. But for the purpose of discussion like this, that’s the line.
ArcaneSlime@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 months ago
To find out who raped who we need an immediate BAC test of both parties, the one who is higher is the victim, the less drunk one goes to prison. We’ll call it Rape Roulette and sell it to netflix for millions.
Rekorse@sh.itjust.works 2 months ago
Next Squid Game let’s go!
Quacksalber@sh.itjust.works 2 months ago
Rekorse@sh.itjust.works 2 months ago
I do agree but doesnt that then lead to the possibility that both people are assaulting each other and are also victims of each other?
What if they both wake up upset that it happened?