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So many comments echoing “women told us to stop approaching us, so we did!”

I mean no offense, truly, but you missed the point if that’s the message you took. It wasn’t “Do not, under any circumstances, speak to a woman” it was, “if you shoot your shot and she’s not interested, move on and don’t make it weird. If she is at work, be very careful as customer service does not equal flirting.” Yes, there are some grey areas (not sure even the best gentleman could slide up to a woman alone in a parking lot and not freak her out), but some of you are kicking up the board without even moving a piece. Stop pushing the narrative that only attractive men can speak to women. Not only are you assuming you’re not attractive by saying that (which cannot be good for your confidence) , you’re reducing women’s feelings and concerns as being blindly shallow and unwarranted.

The world is not full of only beautiful people, yet people still live and love. Not to dismiss the difficulties (as an uggo myself, I get it), but you can get out there, I know you can.

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rekabis@lemmy.ca ⁨1⁩ ⁨week⁩ ago

It wasn’t “Do not, under any circumstances, speak to a woman”

Actually, as explained to me by a woman, it was exactly that.

This was well after I had married, somewhere in my fifth decade, so I was off that particular playing field for quite some time by that point. But on a lark I had asked a feminist what this “leave women alone” refrain meant. And some of it made perfect sense: don’t hit up cashiers or anyone doing their jobs, they’re just being nice and friendly because they are being paid to be polite.

But it also meant don’t approach women when they’re shopping for groceries, as they’re probably tired from work and just want to go home. Don’t approach women on public transportation, as they’re just trying to get home and don’t want to be accosted in a cramped public venue. Don’t approach women when they’re out with friends, because they are with friends and don’t want to be cleaved off like how a predator isolates a member of a herd.

This went on and on, to some pretty ridiculous lengths. Whereupon I asked, “how is any man supposed to chat up a woman?”, to which she said - and no, not kidding at all - “any man who we’re interested in will understand when we’re interested in them.”

Like… telepathy. Literal telepathy.

Sure as shit, this is what a woman said to me.

Most men get absolutely zero life experience in decoding super-subtle hints, and now they’re supposed to miraculously become an expert in navigating a potentially life-destroying minefield, where the only two outcomes is magically getting it right, or risking incarceration and a criminal record when they (invariably) get it wrong?

No wonder so many men are saying “thanks, but no thanks.” I don’t blame them in the least. They’re the smart ones.

And those who are slightly less smart are at least asking the $10,000 question: why aren’t women making the first approach? I mean, isn’t that what this whole “equality of the sexes” shtick was all about? Why don’t women put their money where their mouths are, and ask MEN out, for a change? Because I can guarantee that while any normal woman will experience a certain level of rejection, it still will be several orders of magnitude less than what a similarly-normal man experiences.

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- TheDoozer@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨week⁩ ago
  I was with you (to a degree)until:
  
  they’re supposed to miraculously become an expert in navigating a potentially life-destroying minefield, where the only two outcomes is magically getting it right, or risking a non-trivial probability of incarceration and a criminal record when they (invariably) get it wrong?
  
  This is some nonsense. The worst the man will get (barring some VERY unacceptable behavior on his part) is yelled at by an angry (and probably shitty, if all the man did was politely approach at even a remotely reasonable time) woman. Which, turns out, is something women deal with from shitty men fairly regularly. It turns out, when you are interacting with strangers out in public, there is a small chance you are going to interact with an asshole. That doesn’t mean you should be a hermit, that means you met an asshole. And if everyone you meet is an asshole… you’re probably the asshole.
  
  But nobody is going to jail or having life-shattering consequences for saying hello to a woman they don’t know.
  
  THAT BEING SAID, if we, as men, are regularly told that approaching a woman in public is uncomfortable, unpleasant, or downright scary for women, decent men won’t want to approach women in order to avoid making them uncomfortable.
  
  My personal experience has been to the contrary, and have struck up conversations with a number of women I didn’t know in public, and never had a particularly bad experience. Maybe I am generally non-threatening, or maybe I have better social skills than some, but if all a person who rarely interacts with women hears is that initiating any sort of contact is unpleasant to the woman they talk to, I can’t imagine they’d be inclined to strike up a conversation. And if they do make women uncomfortable (due to poor social skills from… not regularly interacting with women), it only reinforces that belief.
  
  What’s the answer? I don’t know. But it feels like making men who care about the feelings of women uncomfortable with approaching them does nothing but leave the ones who don’t care. I think the message needs to change.
  
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- Ibuthyr@lemmy.wtf ⁨1⁩ ⁨week⁩ ago
  I have a feeling this is a very american thing. Random encounters with the other sex were the norm in Germany (at least before tinder and the likes, no idea how it’s nowadays). Being confident got you a long way. Not always, mind you. But often enough. Most women actually like being spoken to, as long as it’s a friendly encounter. I believe it might be different in America because everyone there is trying to one up each other (often resulting in loud and annoying behavior). I wouldn’t want to be chatted up by the cliche american guy either.
  
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  - Dasus@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨week⁩ ago
    Well I’m not American and it felt pretty spot on, so idk.
    
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  - UniversalMonk@sh.itjust.works ⁨1⁩ ⁨week⁩ ago
    
    Being confident got you a long way.
    
    Still does here in America. But as this thread proves, lots of people on Lemmy lack it.
    
    I’ve never been handsome, and I’ve never had a problem dating. Even when i was in high school and was awkward as fuck.
    
    I grew up on a small town, and everyone talked to everyone. So i never had an issue.
    
    Lemmy seems to have more social outcast than even Reddit.
    
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- Guns0rWeD13@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨week⁩ ago
  sure thing, incel
  
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  - rekabis@lemmy.ca ⁨1⁩ ⁨week⁩ ago
    
    sure thing, incel
    
    Tell me you know nothing about that word without saying you are ignorant AF about that word, and are only throwing it around as a weapon in an attempt to publicly shame me into being quiet.
    
    So: nice ad hominem. You clearly have absolutely nothing of substance in which to counter the message, so instead you attack the speaker.
    
    Truly an effective way of winning arguments! /s
    
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    Guns0rWeD13@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨week⁩ ago
    you? did i tag you or mention you by name? or are you just that insecure?
    
    also, congratulations for highlighting the logical fallacy! i’m sure that’ll get you laid, poindexter!
    
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- 2ugly2live@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨week⁩ ago
  I would honestly say your friend misunderstood the message as well if that was her takeaway.
  
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  - rekabis@lemmy.ca ⁨1⁩ ⁨week⁩ ago
    
    I would honestly say your friend misunderstood the message as well if that was her takeaway.
    
    Unlikely - she was and still is a professor teaching women’s studies at the local university. Published, too. She’s hardly a nobody.
    
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    LH0ezVT@sh.itjust.works ⁨1⁩ ⁨week⁩ ago
    I had a physics professor tell me about free energy. Having a degree is not 100% effective in curing stupid.
    
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    2ugly2live@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨week⁩ ago
    That’s actually even worse 😬
    
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- Dasus@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨week⁩ ago
  Image
  
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TonyOstrich@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨week⁩ ago
Why does it have to be men doing the asking? Maybe it’s the 'tism talking but I tend to be very onboard for the whole equity and equality stuff especially in a relationship. I have never understood why people feel so strongly about gendered roles or activities. Despite being functional in pretty much all traditionally gendered skills (in both directions), I haven’t really ever encountered someone that takes it as seriously.

Of the women I have dated that have been the most vocal about equity and DEI when I point out that they tend to all back to traditional gender roles when it’s to their advantage they have all essentially ended up saying that it is just their personal preference. Well no shit. I’m sure there are plenty of men who would prefer to be able to have all of the housework done by their partner, or billionaires that don’t want to give up any of their money even if they talk about wealth inequality. Just because it’s a preference doesn’t mean it’s OK.

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- 2ugly2live@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨week⁩ ago
  Men don’t have to be the ones asking, but I was responding to the idea that men can’t approach women by default. Either gender can shoot their shot.
  
  And those women can have a preference for a more “traditional” role, it just means they need to be aware that not every guy they meet is going to be cool with that and that may mean making a choice down the line. The idea is that two people are in a relationship that works for them and everyone is safe and respected. So, yes, it’s okay for people to have that preference. The issue is forcing your preference to be the standard.
  
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  - TonyOstrich@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨week⁩ ago
    The issue with the women I have met in my example is that they only want the advantages of the traditional without the negatives. They want the emotional and labor and physical chores to be shared equally, but they don’t want to be responsible for initiating or pursuing. Nor do they have any interest in learning how to do basic things with tools and would rather their partner deal with it.
    
    If we aren’t going to give a misogynist a pass because they don’t want to give up what they have for equality because that’s just his preference, then I don’t think it’s fair to give anyone else a pass when applying the same logic.
    
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Ookami38@sh.itjust.works ⁨1⁩ ⁨week⁩ ago
There are definitely a few (almost certainly a vocal minority) women who do say that - to never approach a woman under any circumstances. They’re the extreme ones, for sure, but we can’t ignore that they exist. Not in an age where everyone has a platform and the extreme positions get clicks.

Another example is the explosion of the manosphere shit. You get one dbag like Tate spreading shit that looks like self help for men. They get popular based on these ideas that seem okay on the surface, but they’re really just manipulative, shady, outright illegal, etc. but because they’re extreme views, that promise results, and that the target audience really wants to hear, now you can’t go anywhere without seeing red/blue pill shit.

Circling back, all it takes is a few people saying and repeating “no approaching women in public EVER” and it spreads. Frustrated women repeat it (not even being literal), more men and women see it, engage with it because it’s polarizing, and it grows. It’s absolutely not hard to imagine that a lot of men truly believe that most women don’t want to be approached ever.

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- 2ugly2live@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨week⁩ ago
  I totally get that, but I just feel we have to do our part to stop pushing that narrative or at least explain it. It’s not like men are stupid by default and can’t be trusted in the public. It should have been an “FYI” mind of thing, instead of a decree.
  
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  - Ookami38@sh.itjust.works ⁨1⁩ ⁨week⁩ ago
    Correct, men are not stupid by default. And yet there is still a very vocal subset of the population that shouts that at every opportunity.
    
    It rarely matters what is actually true. We don’t form our opinions of ourselves based on any objective truth. We form them based on what behaviors get reinforced and what behaviors get punished. Regardless of the truth, if the most prominent messaging coming in is “you’re bad just because you were born a male” then you’ll start to believe it.
    
    I get the feeling that the best interpretation of your message is that you’re denying that statement, the “all men are bad” statement. And that’s a good thing. We need more people saying “not all men are bad” - but we have to do it in a way that acknowledges why people feel that way. It does no good to say “no one is saying don’t approach people ever” when at least a few very loud, very aggressive voices ARE saying that, enough to drown out the majority population with reasonable intentions.
    
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  - djsoren19@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨1⁩ ⁨week⁩ ago
    
    It’s not like men are stupid by default and can’t be trusted in public
    
    Have absolutely heard this verbatim from women in my group chats. Sometimes it’s nice to not be considered a guy because I present v femme, but when the dogpiling starts and I kinda just have to hold my tongue it really sucks to see my friends look at all men as wild dogs.
    
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    Ookami38@sh.itjust.works ⁨1⁩ ⁨week⁩ ago
    I told this story on here before, but it’s relevant.
    
    One day, I was walking around my city with a couple of friends, another guy (M) and a girl (J). We worked together for a while, all generally got along well, killing some time before J had a tattoo appointment. As we’re walking around, we find some stickers covering a light pole, including a pretty new “Yes, all men” sticker. J takes a photo of it and starts posting it on Instagram.
    
    Cue a pretty in-depth discussion. I was pretty hurt. Here I was, hanging with a woman who was actively spreading the very narrative we’re talking about now. Fortunately, I don’t tend to keep company with people I can’t chat with about important topics, so I was able to actually explain why, while I get the actual intent of the message, the relevance in the current climate, but also why it’s very damaging to everyone in society.
    
    I think about that event a fair bit. It’s emblematic of how polarizing the discussions have to be to gain momentum. It has to be all or nothing, or you don’t get to build the message. It’s in every aspect of life now. Dating, Politics, religion, online discourse… If you’re not at the extreme end, buy in fully, then you’re at best ignorant and at worst a false flag.
    
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Pacattack57@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨week⁩ ago
I don’t know man, it sounds like you follow rule 1 and 2 and don’t realize it.

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UniversalMonk@sh.itjust.works ⁨1⁩ ⁨week⁩ ago

It wasn’t “Do not, under any circumstances, speak to a woman” it was, “if you shoot your shot and she’s not interested, move on and don’t make it weird. If she is at work, be very careful as customer service does not equal flirting.”

Yes. I’m amazed so many people are missing this. I’ve dated a lot of women. And when I’ve asked someone out and it didn’t work out, ya shrug, laugh it off and move on. It’s not THAT personal. I’ve turned down others too. It’s the same thing. Some people click with you, some done. Lemmy users seem to take a rejection way too personally.

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Guns0rWeD13@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨week⁩ ago
fuck em. let em figure it out. this is no time for weakness.

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