Comment on Maybe this is better for everyone

Fizz@lemmy.nz ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

• commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  Vegans have been refining these arguments for a decade now and can present clear sharp moral stances with a counter to everything you have to say.

  this doesn’t make them right, and in fact often leads them to use easily debunked but rhetorically impressive arguments. that’s called sophistry.

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  • Fizz@lemmy.nz ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    I disagree. The arguments vegans use are far more morally consistent and thought out than non vegans. Non vegans don’t reason themselves into the position and often don’t have a good justification for why they’re not vegan. When they are pushed they fall apart instantly.

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    • commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      The arguments vegans use are far more morally consistent and thought out than non vegans.

      it’s true that vegans often think far more about the moral arguments around veganism. i, however, find the arguments to be unconvincing, and often sophistic.

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    • commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      Non vegans don’t reason themselves into the position

      most of the time, maybe. but ex-vegans certainly do, among others.

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  • mathemachristian@lemm.ee ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    The rhetorically impressive and easily debunked argument:

    A) Slavery of sentient beings is wrong
    B) Animals are sentient
    ∴ Enslaving animals is wrong

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    • commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      i used a plural. it’s not just one argument. you’re not being very honest about the breadth of the arguments made.

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    • commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      animal agriculture isn’t slavery. i don’t believe even vegans believe this syllogism rings true. if they did, we’d have a lot more harriet tubmans and a lot fewer tash petersons.

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• Viking_Hippie@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  Most people are not prepared for interested in a conversation on veganism.

  Vegans have been refining these arguments preaching at people who didn’t ask for a decade now

  and can present clear sharp moral stances with a counter to everything present you as a gleefully evil animal abuser no matter what you have to say.

  They also have the easier side to argue.

  That part is arguably true. Which is all the more reason for evangelical vegans NOT to have to behave like they’re missionaries educating savages every time they manage to trick a non-vegan into engaging with them.

  Dietary choices, religions, and dietary choices treated as if they were a religion are like penises: it’s fine that you have them and it’s super that you enjoy them, but you are not allowed to try to force them on me without my consent.

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  • JoMiran@lemmy.ml ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    I follow a plant based diet and agree with just about everything you wrote. I find that hardcore vegans can act like religious zealots yelling at little nine year old girls on the street for wearing a rainbow colored t-shirt.

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  • muix@lemmy.sdf.org ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    Your freedom ends, where the freedom of others begins. Why would that not include animals?

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    • commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      Why would that not include animals?

      three separate reasons.

      they aren’t people. the don’t participate in our society. tehy don’t respect the freedoms of others.

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  • Beaver@lemmy.ca ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    It’s meateaters who want to debate me all the time

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    • Soulg@sh.itjust.works ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      Absolutely a lie lol

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• Foni@lemm.ee ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  Even flat-earthers have refined their arguments over the years, which doesn’t make them any less stupid. I have zero moral problems with my meat consumption and I’ll debate it with anyone.

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  • Fizz@lemmy.nz ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    Flat earth is not at all comparable to Veganism. Vegans don’t need to make up anything to justify their side. They simply care for animals and therefore they don’t eat them.

    I’m not vegan so I’m not taking you up on that debate.

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    • Beaver@lemmy.ca ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      Yup, vegans have science and studies to back up their claims while some meaters have tradition and false equivalences to back up theirs.

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• commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  I am enjoying watching vegans battle everyone. Most people are not prepared for a conversation on veganism.

  I think it is good that they prefer to not have to argue about the validity of their choices, so stay in their own communities. going to c/vegan and being a shit head should be instance-wide bannable (even if it’s temporary). but when they are in other communities they should be respectful of others choices, not sandbag them with sophistry.

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  • Passerby6497@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    going to c/vegan and being a shit head should be instance-wide bannable (even if it’s temporary).

    Are we singling out c/vegan as snowflakes, or are we planning on making being a shithead in communities a banable offence?

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    • commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      going into a community and being a shithead should be a temporary instance-wide ban, yea. don’t go into c/DBZ and say “funimation sucks. dbz sucks. dragonball sucks. you are a bunch of dumb babies”.

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• hemko@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  Yeah. I do agree with vegans in that humans should transition to a diet that’s more sustainable and removes the animal suffering from the equation - and I do put in some effort to reduce my use of animal based products but: god damnit some people of that community are some seriously insufferable people to converse with

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  • slaacaa@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    Exactly. There are ethical, environmental and health reasons to decrease humanity’s meat consumption. But screaming slurs with religous zealousy burning in your eyes will not win over the majority of the population. If you push people, they push back. Especially on morals, which is the least efficient argument to have a plant based diet - yet it’s the one some vegans like to push the most, as it makes them feel better about themselves.

    I know exactly what vegans know, about eg. dairy industry and the rape of cows. Seen many sickening documentaries, and I believe that in a 100 years we will look back on exploiting/killing animals for dairy/meat as we do now on slavery.

    Still, I eat meat. Much less meat than I did years ago, but I have no intention to fully stop, as the alternatives are not yet practical, affordable, or tasty enough for me. If a lot of people decreased their meat consumption, our planet would be much better - how about we take that first step together, instead of insulting each other?

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• commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  They also have the easier side to argue.

  no, they don’t

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  • Fizz@lemmy.nz ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    Ok what’s the moral justification for eating meat?

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    • commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      i don’t need one. there is no reason for me to believe it’s immoral. it’s probably amoral.

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      • naught@sh.itjust.works ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

        Do you think that animals have consciousness? Do they feel pain, fear? Is it moral for you to inflict pain and fear on a conscious being? What about 1,000,000 of those beings? Would you butcher a toddler for meat? What about an animal with similar (or more) depth of emotion and cognition than that? Is it okay because they are other species? What about the deforestation caused by animal agriculture? What about the impact on climate change? I think there are many valid moral arguments that you are outright dismissing with a mere hand wave. I hope you give it some more thought

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    • joonazan@discuss.tchncs.de ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      I think it is funny to make this an ethics discussion when there is plenty of evidence that bacon and sausage cause digestive tract cancers. Meat is also pretty expensive unless heavily subsidized.

      I think the main focus should be on educating people that a healthy diet contains a very small amount of meat even though the meat industry has managed to make people think it should be in every meal.

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• MapleEngineer@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  No one hates vegans. Almost everyone hates vegan extremists. No one cares what you eat. You want to eat brown slop and claim its the best thing ever fill your boots. You want a vegan pet, get a rabbit. Just don’t try to shake everyone else into doing what you want and don’t feed a carnivore a vegan diet and no one will say anything.

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  • Beaver@lemmy.ca ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    There are so many dishes you can make with plants and yet you choose the term “slop”

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    • MapleEngineer@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      I’ve seen some of the pictures that have been posted in c/vegan. Some of them were literally brown slop. My family eats a number of vegetarian and vegan dishes along with those that contain meat. I don’t care what anyone wants to eat, even if it is brown slop.

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      • Beaver@lemmy.ca ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

        You’re choosing the worst looking examples of plant-based foods to suit your claim, any soap could be considered slop.

        You can make salads, tacos, burgers, bread, desserts all with plants.

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• Kroxx@lemm.ee ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  Vegans have been refining these arguments for a decade now and can present clear sharp moral stances with a counter to everything you have to say

  Lol they fuck they can, they couldn’t even properly present and defend their own sources.

  lemm.ee/comment/14432604

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• RecluseRamble@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  [deleted]

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  • breakingcups@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    You replied to the wrong person

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    • RecluseRamble@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      Damn, thanks, moved it.

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