Comment on PLEAAASSEE PLEASE COME BACK TO THE OFFICE PLS
saigot@lemmy.ca 1 year ago
Look I work from home, I think everyone who can (and wants to) work from home should work from home most of the time. But people are definitely less productive working from home, and I think the people who say that most people are more productive are delusional.
There are more important things than just raw productivity numbers, western workers have been working far too hard and far too long for the last half century, and I think we should return to a more humane approach to working.
But people are definitely less productive working from home, and I think the people who say that most people are more productive are delusional
Except pretty much every study done on this has said the exact opposite. I am much more productive when I’m home. My team is much more productive when working from home and hard data backs it up. I literally cannot think of one thing about the office that I miss or made me more productive.
I miss distracting coworkers with conversations instead of working! /s
What about the ice cold AC in the winter?
My last office job involved my desk being 7 feet from the entry door to the building. We had codes to get in so anyone not employed there had to knock and it was on me to get up and figure out who they are and decide if I could let them in. Half the time this also involved me tracking down someone else in the building to see if they were expecting said individual OR I had to have the back and forth discussion with said individual that no we don’t want your services and point to the No Soliciting sticker right on front of them on the door. This definitely took away from my productivity.
You are laughing. But with these hot summers I actually miss some of that artic wind. But more importantly I have a heavy hayfever and being in the closed office durning the summer was a relief. It all went considerably worse when I started working from home.
My ability to close a door and sit, focus, and develop in silence makes me not only more productive, but also happier. I’ve done some of the best work of my career over these past 3+ years. I used to wear headphones 50+ hours a week, now it’s only when i go for a walk every morning.
Being happier directly leads to better productivity. I’m not going to try hard to do what I don’t like or what doesn’t help me to do what I like
There's really nothing like sitting in a darkened room with music blasting, code pouring out of your fingers while you have an out of body experience from caffeine overdose and lack of sleep. I've spent my entire career chasing that high.
What studies?
The audacity of you asking for sources when you provided none for your position.
I love it.
The article provides sources and the commenter is refuting that claim.
Also: economist.com/…/the-working-from-home-delusion-fa…
So, sources.
The few people I know who are against remote working are the type of persons that don’t have any non-family social life outside workplace and are freeking out, because their coffee break chit-chats disappeared.
They still base their view on the idea that people are spineless and sooner or later start slacking off.
The ones I see who are against WFH the hardest have pretty awful family lives and don’t want to admit it to themselves. They need the break from the shitty family they can’t face or deal with more than is absolutely necessary.
Or men that do have a happy life at home, but don’t want to be home w/o the wife because children are women’s work (I worked with a guy pre COVID that didn’t take WFH days because he might have to watch kids on his own)
Yep. Either that or they’re just older and used to the way things were. Go to the office if you want but leave me out of it.
As a work from homer who gets twice as much done in half the time, I'm eyeballing your own delusion xD
All the studies show literally the opposite. Maybe you’re less productive, but that makes you the outlier.
Long term burnout also kills productivity.
And having to hire someone new and train them because the freedom they enjoyed is no longer available.
Just fire them and hire fresh people!
\s
I’m definitely no specialist on this topic, but to me it seems questionable to generalize the conclusions of that review to all remote workers. From section 3.a, where they analyze the productivity of fully remote workers:
[…] Emmanuel and Harrington (2023) use data from a Fortune 500 firm which had both in-person and remote call centers pre-pandemic. […] Using the always remote call-centers as the control group they find an 8% reduction in call volumes among employees who shifted from fully in-person to fully remote work.
Extending the results of one call-center to all other companies would be very shortsighted. Still, it may be evidence that for this type of industry specifically fully-remote work may have a negative effect. Nonetheless, the authors of the paper offer a more nuanced analysis, finding that remote work actually increased the productivity of workers who were already in the company:
[…] We find that working remotely increased call-center workers’ productivity. When previously on-site workers took up opportunities to go remote in 2018, their hourly calls rose by 7.5%. Similarly, when COVID-19 closed on-site call centers, a difference-in-difference suggests that the productivity of workers who switched to remote work rose by 7.6% relative to their already remote peers.
What their results suggest instead is that people who are overall less productive are more likely to seek remote work:
Despite these positive productivity effects, remote workers were 12pp less likely to be promoted. If better workers are more concerned about being overlooked in remote jobs, remote workers will be adversely selected. Consistent with this theory, we find evidence that remote work attracted latently less productive workers. When all workers were remote due to COVID-19, those who were hired into remote jobs were 18% less productive than those who were hired into on-site jobs.
Going back to the main review, the next study they cite didn’t actually find a decrease in productivity, only finding that workers spent more hours working to do the same job:
Gibbs, Mengel and Siemroth (2022) examine IT professionals in a large Indian technology company who shifted to fully remote work at the onset of the pandemic. Measured performance among these workers remained constant while remote but they worked longer hours, implying a drop in employee productivity of 8% to 19%.
Indeed, working more hours doesn’t mean productivity will increase, but to frame this as a drop in productivity because workers can simply do their jobs at a more calm pace seems rather disingenuous to me.
Atkin, Schoar, and Shinde (2023) run a randomized control trial of data-entry workers in India, randomizing between working fully in the office and fully at home. They find home-workers are 18% less productive.
Similar to the first study they found that the workers who prefer to work from home are less productive when doing so, which partially explained the lower productivity:
[…] We find negative selection effects for office-based work: workers who prefer home-based work are 12% faster and more accurate at baseline. We also find a negative selection on treatment: workers who prefer home work are much less productive at home than at the office (27% less compared to 13% less for workers who prefer the office).
Still, because this study focused specifically on one data-entry company and only included 234 workers in their final sample, we should be careful with generalizing their findings.
Ultimately even if we take the conclusions of the review at face value, the authors themselves point out that mixing remote and in-person work doesn’t seem to lower productivity, and remote work can still be an attractive option for companies because it reduces on-site costs:
[…] Fully remote work is associated with about 10% lower productivity than fully in-person work. Challenges with communicating remotely, barriers to mentoring, building culture and issues with self-motivation appear to be factors. But fully remote work can generate even larger cost reductions from space savings and global hiring, making it a popular option for firms. Hybrid working appears to have no impact on productivity but is also popular with firms because it improves employee recruitment and retention. Looking ahead we predict working from home will continue to grow because of the expansion in research and development into new technologies to improve remote working. Hence, the pandemic generated both a one-off jump and a longer-run growth acceleration in working from home.
There are a lot of other studies on remote working with conflicting results, with some finding an increase in worker productivity, while others suggest the opposite, and as the section dedicated to COVID-19 states the effects of remote work can vary depending on the earnings and position of the worker.
As some of the previous studies point out the drop in productivity is in part due to less productive workers self-selecting into remote positions, and due to remote training at the start of the job being less adequate. Hence what seems like the most reasonable solution to me is in-person training for the first few weeks, then a mix of in-person and remote work for employees who want it - and even if there is some drop in productivity, I agree with you that the improved life-work balance and worker satisfaction that remote work gives to some people is worth the cost.
Your analysis is a lot better than mine. Thanks!
Because showering, eating, driving are productive vs get up and get started?
My team was more productive at home, no open space telephoning, discussing, interruptions etc etc etc. no hours on a car or public transport, etc etc and it seems it’s the norm (or about the same productivity).
What are you smoking :-D
But people are definitely less productive working from home
How so? I personally think it's a somewhat personal matter, but people who are less productive are home seem to be people who can't focus in general. I am far more productive working from home, mostly because I don't get distracted by others. I have colleagues who spend hours bantering only to then stay in the company until later to compensate for the banter - I'd rather get my work done so I can end my day on time and go home do the fun stuff. But I do have colleagues who say they get distracted easily when working at home and they'd rather work at the office.
Overall though, my company used to be very against working from home, but after the period of mandatory work from home, management admitted overall productivity had increased. They still insist people should come to the office every now and then to maintain the "friendly" environment the company is supposed to have, though, which is fair I guess.
That needs to be backed up by data and not just what people think. And reliable data needs scientific study, with proper time and people for the answer to be minimally reliable. Working from home is different from the office, we can establish that - all the rest are just thoughts or delusions from both sides.
Having said that, I agree 100% with the conclusion. We don’t need more productivity to make more money for profit only. We need investment for our personal lives too.
and I think the people who say that most people are more productive are delusional
I care more about the actual data that otherwise makes your position the more delusional one. For instance, I-
There are more important things than just raw productivity numbers
Ah of course you had to throw that in there to address the numerous studies that say people are more productive working from home. I think you need to check your facts before posting about this topic again.
But people are definitely less productive working from home, and I think the people who say that most people are more productive are delusional.
Our productivity went up across the board according to my managers. We are letting our office go & finding a smaller space for our equipment.
Drunemeton@lemmy.world 1 year ago
But how do you define “productive”?
I work from home and I get the same amount of work done. However if you define it as, “Doing X amount of work in Y amount of time,” then yeah I’m less productive because nowadays instead of getting that work done in an 8-hour shift I take about 10–12 hours to do it.
Same work, same day, so my productivity hasn’t changed. I just take longer to do it by taking breaks, going out to long lunches with friends, and my stress level is almost non-existent!
I find that to be a very equitable trade-off: Almost no job-related stress for a slightly longer working day.
Semi-Hemi-Demigod@kbin.social 1 year ago
I think people leave out the fact that their commute should also be considered time working. If you've got an hour commute and an eight hour shift, you really have a ten hour shift.
So you are taking ten hours to do eight hours of work, because part of it means dragging your brain through meatspace to be there. Since you don't have to do that, you can take longer doing the actual job.
Pisodeuorrior@kbin.social 1 year ago
There's also to take into consideration the fact that people experience dips of productivity throughout the day. Like, I'd never be able to start something that requires most of my brain power after 3.
For others it's early morning.
So, when I was in the office I would just kill time, go on coffee breaks or just di fucking nothing until it was time to go home, and I know for a fact that it was like that for most of my colleagues.
No one works 8 hours straight out of a 8 hours work day. Working from home just removes the torture of sticking around looking busy.
I actually complete from home the she amount of tasks I used to at the office, really, because my productivity (and that of others) wasn't constant there either.
pain_is_life_is_pain@sh.itjust.works 1 year ago
Had a summer job as a customer service agent for a big company, and pretty much did work 8 hours non stop, the phones were ringing constantly. I had two 5 minute breaks that I could take whenever and one 20 minute break that I had to take at a set time. The break time wasn’t payed, so you ended up having to be there for 8.5 hours. It was very stressful, but it kinda helped that every customer had a new problem, so it wasn’t very repetitive.
Now I some days take longer and other days shorter, to accomplish from home what I could’ve gotten done working from the office.
Rivalarrival@lemmy.today 1 year ago
“For disappearing acts, it’s hard to beat what happens to the 8 hours supposedly left after 8 hour of work and 8 hours of sleep” – Doug Larson.
An 8-hour shift quickly turns into 10-12 clock-hours when you factor in all the extraneous crap that goes along with it. I mean, just lunch and a commute easily adds 60-90 unpaid minutes per day. Add the time spent getting ready for work and settling down after work, and you’re easily up to 10 hours a day.
HobbitFoot@thelemmy.club 1 year ago
Studies that I’ve seen have seen both an increase in time to perform work and a decrease in quality of work.
You are noting that you take more time, but you work that additional time. Not everyone does that.
Increased employee happiness/retention and reduced office rent may be good reasons why to pick full remote over the increased productivity of the office, but the idea that people are more productive at home isn’t proving itself to be true.
HellAwaits@lemmy.world 1 year ago
Except it is. Try harder.
HobbitFoot@thelemmy.club 1 year ago
Source?
economist.com/…/the-working-from-home-delusion-fa…