The example you gave is a bit unfortunate - the word “Nazi” totally lost it’s meaning and the scope is ever increasing - it’s not more “bad/evil” nowadays. It’s like people forgot another words when disagreeing with someone. It could be you being banned as “nazi” some day and some chump will (mis)quote the paradox of tolerance in comments and pat themselves at the back for all the upvotes :D After all, nobody likes Nazis, right?
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Nakoichi@hexbear.net 8 months ago
I mean this is real free speech. We might find what they say and talk about horrible. But that’s what real free speech gets you
This is why I do not believe in free speech absolutism.
Nazi shit, pedo shit, etc. should not be tolerated and there is absolutely nothing wrong with silencing these sick fucks.
IceMan@lemmy.one 8 months ago
Microw@lemm.ee 8 months ago
Just because someone used the word wrong doesnt mean we cant ban Nazis. Nazis are a clearly defined bunch. Fascists are a more broader category of people who also shouldn’t be supported. Authoritarian people? That’s where we get into a really big scope.
photonic_sorcerer@lemmy.dbzer0.com 8 months ago
The word Nazi came from National Socialism, a brand of fascism. We use it to describe fascists; I think it works perfectly well.
Norgur@kbin.social 8 months ago
As a German I oppose the use of the word Nazi for fascism In general. Nazis are a very distinct variety of fascism with a horrible past. This is not to be diluted by throwing in "regular" fascist dictators like Mussolini in there. That guy and his cronies were some of the worst people one can imagine, but they were nothing compared to their disgusting German counterparts.
So no, I can't agree with you that calling fascists Nazis "works perfectly well".snooggums@kbin.social 8 months ago
Nazi is the Kleenex of fascism. You aree literally correct, but in practice people generally know it means fascist and not literally a specific political party because 99% of the time it is close enough.
Spzi@lemm.ee 8 months ago
Correct and an important distinction generally. But in the given context, what difference does it make? Would we ban a NS-Nazi, but not a Mussolini-fascist? In the brevity of the comment which started this chain, I think “Nazi shit” referred to both. Since both has no place, and both are very similar to each other for all intents and purposes of Lemmy moderation.
Yes, we could simply use the correct term and oppose ‘fascists’, but internationally, both terms are practically synonyms.
muse@kbin.social 8 months ago
So should we wait until the fascists start burning people before we worry more about semantics?
This is such a braindead response.
Unaware7013@kbin.social 8 months ago
the word “Nazi” totally lost it’s meaning and the scope is ever increasing - it’s not more “bad/evil” nowadays
I heard the same shit from conservatives just before Charlottesville
cacheson@kbin.social 8 months ago
the word “Nazi” totally lost it’s meaning and the scope is ever increasing
Sus.
Iunnrais@lemm.ee 8 months ago
This is a statement I hear only from people who think “nazi” means “evil”, and don’t notice that their personal ideology is drifting closer to literal fascism, but since it’s their ideology, what they believe is right, that means it’s not evil. But nazi means evil, so nazi can’t possibly mean their new beliefs.
But I assure you, it can. And it’s not scope-creep, it’s you-drift.
cacheson@kbin.social 8 months ago
US conservatives used to actively distance themselves from nazis and fascists. That was before the Tea Party, which later morphed into MAGA. When a fascist movement became their key to power, they had to stop repudiating nazis and other fascists and start running interference for them.
Spzi@lemm.ee 8 months ago
I guess you hit it.
So on a more theoretical note: There are contexts in which the word lost it’s meaning. Some leftist groups are quite trigger happy with words usually reserved for the extreme right. I also heard in Russia, ‘Nazi’ has a different meaning than in the west, literally more “bad/evil”, a more general ‘enemy of Russia’.
However;
Just because someone used the word wrong doesnt mean …
DarkThoughts@kbin.social 8 months ago
Your kneejerk reaction just proves his point on how dumbass propaganda works.
flashgnash@lemm.ee 8 months ago
The problem is who gets to decide what’s acceptable and what isn’t? It’s fine IRL because if you say something horrible you get shunned but online you can always find people who agree with you and those people will always make their own echo chambers and isolate themselves
Only way on such a large scale is moderation but that’s a never ending battle and requires a small group of people or single person deciding what’s acceptable
SunriseParabellum@hexbear.net 8 months ago
The problem is who gets to decide what’s acceptable and what isn’t?
Yeah! Who gets to decide if it’s acceptable for me to take a shit on the floor at Arby’s? Who died and made you God Arby’s manager?
WhyEssEff@hexbear.net 8 months ago
BelieveRevolt@hexbear.net 8 months ago
if you say something horrible you get shunned
very-intelligent People are rational actors and naturally know that bad ideas are bad.
If that’s how it worked we wouldn’t have fascists everywhere right now.
flashgnash@lemm.ee 8 months ago
True there are a lot of stupid people out there but if I were to say something horrifically racist in pretty much any company I can be fairly confident I would be told exactly where to shove it though
DayOfDoom@hexbear.net [bot] 8 months ago
It’s so cool how you solved racism in your head just now.
BelieveRevolt@hexbear.net 8 months ago
That’s definitely not universal. I personally have heard people say racist, transphobic, etc. stuff without anyone shunning them because they were co-workers, relatives and other groups you can’t shun without things getting awkward. Besides, aren’t you in fact advocating for not having Nazi and pedo shit around, since the obvious analogy for being shunned IRL would be getting banned IRL for being a Nazi or pedo?
ProxyTheAwesome@hexbear.net 8 months ago
Yes racism just corrects itself. That’s why there’s famously no racism happening anywhere
GarbageShoot@hexbear.net 8 months ago
If this was true, racism would be eradicated. It must further be stated that, though many racists are very ignorant, ascribing racism fundamentally to “stupidity” is just as worthless as ascribing it to “evil”. It is a moralizing account that cannot be usefully applied as systemic critique because it is all supposedly a matter of personal virtue.
People are racist as a strategy to prosper, first and foremost. It is not until you understand racism as a social strategy that you can fight it.
Cummunism@hexbear.net 8 months ago
ah yes, the free market will fix it. the “marketplace of ideas.”
gtfo
HumanBehaviorByBjork@hexbear.net 8 months ago
and if you kept doing it, would you be asked to leave? would your “free speech” be “violated” by exclusion from decent society?
Nakoichi@hexbear.net 8 months ago
Nah dude I just said that people should be prevented from spreading Nazi or Pedo shit and you come in here with your contrarian bullshit.
Free speech does not, and frankly should not exist.
You said something horrible in your implicit defense of Nazi and Pedo shit being allowed to be spread. Now you are getting shunned for it. How’s that working out for you?
CyborgMarx@hexbear.net 8 months ago
if I were to say something horrifically racist in pretty much any company I can be fairly confident I would be told exactly where to shove it though
What Saturday morning cartoon do you live in bro?
corgiwithalaptop@hexbear.net 8 months ago
Shut up, nerd
Nakoichi@hexbear.net 8 months ago
Now let’s see how they react to saying something horrible and getting shunned for it lol.
corgiwithalaptop@hexbear.net 8 months ago
Oh wait now they’re gonna complain about Hexbear bullies. Calling it now.
corgiwithalaptop@hexbear.net 8 months ago
Flippin the tables on 'em. You love to see it.
CyborgMarx@hexbear.net 8 months ago
The problem is who gets to decide what’s acceptable and what isn’t?
I don’t care who gets to decide as long as Nazism and pedophilia isn’t tolerated
GarbageShoot@hexbear.net 8 months ago
The problem is who gets to decide what’s acceptable and what isn’t
Put it to a vote, simple as. This “who watches the watcher?” bit neoliberals do is nothing but concern-trolling because they have been taught the purpose of the government is to protect property rights, wage war, and nothing more.
In all avenues of life and interaction, we should pursue the use of power by collective assent to improve our conditions, including by stamping out fascists and abusers with a mind not to “justice” but to protecting the people they would victimize.
Nakoichi@hexbear.net 8 months ago
Put it to a vote, simple as
Nah voting is overrated I will be the supreme chancellor and gatekeeper of what is allowed to be said online.
This is a joke of course but that would be better than whatever this weirdo is advocating.
Nakoichi@hexbear.net 8 months ago
It’s fine IRL because if you say something horrible you get shunned
lmfao no you don’t I hear people say horrible shit all the time and nobody speaks up because muh civility, or because the people they are saying it to are at their job and calling it out would be “political.”
You have a child’s understanding of the world.
Helmic@hexbear.net 8 months ago
The entire model of federation is shunning. We are shunning them by defederating. We don’t have to interact with them. You don’t have to interact with them. You don’t have to interact with us, and in fact you could decide to go join the pedos and nazis and nazi pedos on their instances. You won’t, but on a technical level there is no central content moderator for all of the fediverse, only instances practicing free association and maybe cooperating to make that process easier.
But since you lack the authority to make us interact with those groups, you’re left having to choose who you’ll keep company with, and that’ll have consequences as people don’t like nazi or pedo apologists.
ScrewdriverFactoryFactoryProvider@hexbear.net 8 months ago
You get to decide. Is this instance not democratic when it comes to federation instance decisions? Hexbear admins give us a vote on a per-instance basis.
flashgnash@lemm.ee 8 months ago
Which is why Lemmy is a good system but I think that system is rather fragile because instances like lemmy.world could get the majority of the users, be absolute saints for a while so everyone gets comfortable and then influence the rest of the instances with threats of defederating
I guess considering there’s no monetary gain from having more users that doesn’t really work as well but still
ProfessorOwl_PhD@hexbear.net 8 months ago
It’s me, I decide, and I decided nazism was bad a long time ago. You really need to get with the program dude.
PoliticalAgitator@lemm.ee 8 months ago
We do, through threads like this.
DarkThoughts@kbin.social 8 months ago
Coming from a hexbear user. lol
stillwater@lemm.ee 8 months ago
Hexbear does encourage reading the original material instead of others people’s thoughts on them. A lot of free speech diehards would be gobsmacked if they ever really read all the defining arguments for free speech and realized that they all have railguards suggested.
DarkThoughts@kbin.social 8 months ago
Tankies are still toxic extremists that can be thrown into the same sack as Nazis and child abusers. They can all go fuck themselves for what they do and are.
stillwater@lemm.ee 8 months ago
Maybe. But in this case, this person is in good company about their approach to free speech since it’s the same thing every celebrated free speech thinker also said. Them being part of Hexbear is immaterial to the thought expressed, which is not a Tankie thought.