If we take physicality out and the tran debate. Doesn't almost everything boil down to a single choice? Like alcohol, tobacco, weed, heroin and other addictives. More inside.

Submitted ⁨⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago⁩ by ⁨Patnou@lemmy.world⁩ to ⁨[deleted]⁩

Is this not the reason we have the term peer pressure? But when A individual is not genetically inclined to take that first sip or hit, they choose it, either to be “cool” or not get beaten up? I don’t believe in predisposition and never heard a good argument for it. It all boils down to choice, doesn’t it or am I out of this world weird with my opinion? Much love to all who answer.

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RodgeGrabTheCat@sh.itjust.works ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
Referring to the first line of your post - Are you claiming being Trans is a choice?

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- lagoon8622@sh.itjust.works ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
  I doubt even they know what they’re claiming lol
  
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  - RodgeGrabTheCat@sh.itjust.works ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
    😁😁
    
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- Solumbran@lemmy.world ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
  I had this user tagged as a person defending rapists, now I’ll have to add that they’re a nazi too I guess.
  
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  - RodgeGrabTheCat@sh.itjust.works ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
    Defending rapists? Jfc is he maga?
    
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Junkers_Klunker@feddit.dk ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
I can only speak for myself, but I didn’t start smoking, drinking or doing drugs because it was cool, I did it because it calmed my brain.

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- Patnou@lemmy.world ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
  But you made the choice to go that route instead. You could have seen a doctor or something. I’m not chastising you just saying you had a or multiple choices to make.
  
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  - Junkers_Klunker@feddit.dk ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
    Oh my sweet summer child, if only it were that easy.
    
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  - HoneyMustardGas@lemmy.world ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
    Everything we do is either a response or a reaction to internal or external stimuli. Addiction starts out being a response to say peer pressure but eventually becomes a compulsion to the point in some case that the user cannot live without said drug. In the case of trans people, they know who they are and the choice is how far they are willing to transition. Some don’t do it fully others are more brave or resourceful. In reality, you know who you are, society just attaches labels to people based on external factors but in the long run, a person knows. It is not a choice to know. That is just reality. They did brain scans of trans people. There is a male and female brain and brains that are somewhere on that linear spectrum. I am not really qualified to elaborate further.
    
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southsamurai@sh.itjust.works ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
As is often the case, you’re asking an interesting question hidden beneath some of the worst possible phrasing you’ll find online lol

At least, if I’m getting your gist, you’re asking “if we ignore that trans people nare fundamentally trans from birth, wouldn’t it be fair to compare it to any given choice a person makes?”

Assuming I’m reading you right, that’s a good question, but it has a major flaw in it. Comparing transness to a recreational drug is just bad. For a good comparison that fits the restrictions on your thought experiment, you’d want to compare it to steroids, “back room” plastic surgery, or other body altering decisions that are currently not allowed under law, and are also socially stigmatized, as well as causing permanent/long term changes.

So, no, even when pretending that what makes a person trans isn’t started in the womb, it does not boil down to a single choice the way an addictive substance would.

First, not all substances are addictive quickly. None are immediately addictive that I’m aware of. So if transness were a choice, it would still differ in that way.

Second, there is still a difference between making a choice to engage in a long term process and being pressured into a short term action via social manipulation. One can only be peer pressured for so long before a breaking point is reached, though that point may still result in the individual accepting the social pressures and following them.

Thus, it would mean it isn’t a single choice, it’s a chain of choices.

Now, there’s another aspect to the general idea of transness being a choice rather than a state of being (and, again, that’s just the restriction of the thought experiment, not a fact). It begs the question that if individuals have freedom of choice to do a given harmful thing, why can we not choose all harmful things for ourselves? Why can we consume alcohol, but not steroids? Why do we allow restrictions on some things but not others? I’ll let you guess the answer to that as it goes off on a major tangent.

And, indeed, if being trans were a choice, it should be completely treated the same as deciding to get a tattoo or stop at the pub for a few pints. Mind you, that assumes that body autonomy is something we should all have. Anyone that doesn’t believe that is welcome to their opinion, no matter how shitty it is, but I won’t debate it.

Now, you deny that predisposition exists. I’m not sure how or why you came to that conclusion, what with the very clear evidence of predisposition to things like breast cancer, Alzheimer’s, Parkinson’s, or any of dozens of diseases known, beyond any reasonable doubt to have a genetic factor that increases the chances of them from marginally to vastly, or even almost certain.

Denying predisposition to other illnesses as even possible is just poor thinking. When there is compelling evidence to the contrary, holding that belief is on par with hating vaccines in terms of sheer thick-headed duncery. Anyone believing that it isn’t possible is quite welcome to that belief, but then again, they’re equally welcome to believe the sun rotates around the earth, which happens to be flat. So, you know…

With that in mind, I suspect you are, indeed, out of this world on this one lol.

To conclude, transness is still not perfectly understood. Since a great deal of it exists as physical aspects of the brain, and seem to stem from hormonal and epigenetic processes in the womb, I doubt a fully perfect understanding will come along any time soon.

But it is absolutely, positively, 100% not a choice. One might choose to transition for other reasons, as humans are a complex and interesting species. But that’s different from being trans in any real sense.

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- Patnou@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
  Sorry I am old school and spent 20 years being told to explain myself, or show how I got to this answer (when I could quickly do it in my head) but I am trying to work on it. Everyone gets on to me about it. Then I get stationed somewhere else and they want me to expound on stuff then next station want me to simplify it.
  
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Rhynoplaz@lemmy.world ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
If you’re simplifying drug addiction down to “You made a choice to take that drug.” For the most part, that’s true. Aside from any non consensual dosings, which I’m sure you’d agree are the exception, 100% of addicts chose to use it that first time.

We can’t completely toss away predisposition though. There are a lot of people who have chosen to use a substance that first time, and didn’t get hooked. Others, whether through genetics or psychology, aren’t as lucky.

Imagine the scenario of a safe, recreational user. He has occasionally used X over the years, and has no addiction. He goes months without even thinking about X. He hangs out with a friend, who is a little more passionate about his hobbies. After hearing about how his trusted friend has been safely using X for years, he reluctantly decides that the DON’T DO DRUGS propaganda from school must have been exaggerating. After all, this good friend isn’t homeless and sucking dick at the bus station for X. Sadly, this friend REALLY enjoys it and tries it again more frequently than his friend, and his use escalates until he developed an addiction.

Yeah, he made a choice, but sometimes it’s based on misleading evidence, and not just looking cool.

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GreenBeard@lemmy.ca ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
Your opinion is not uncommon, but that also doesn’t make it right. The counter examples of what constitutes predisposition for addiction are plentiful, but I don’t really have time to go through all of them. There are elements of choice, there are elements of environment, and there are elements of biology in every case. You can ignore the other factors if you wish, that doesn’t make them go away.

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Carnelian@lemmy.world ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
What’s the first sentence of your title mean?

But I think you’re asking, “Isn’t drug addiction ultimately the result of a personal choice since a person has to choose to try it in the first place?”

You could boil it down to that. Personally I chose to start smoking cigarettes at a point in my life when I was spending like 25 hours a week with people who would take smoke breaks outdoors every 45 minutes or so, and we’d use the outdoor time to discuss the project we were working on. In that instance in time it just felt like a natural thing to start smoking as well.

For me personally, I view at that as a personal choice I made (really several choices). Was fully educated about all the dangers and everything.

On the flip side, I feel like we can’t really entirely discount genetics right? Like there’s probably layers to it. Some people possibly would be enticed by the smell of smoke, for example. Plus there may be genetic predispositions to succumb to peer pressure, or marketing, etc.

Put it this way. I walk past a slot machine and hear the jingles and see the cheerful flashing lights, and I roll my eyes and forget about it. Someone else might see that and get totally captivated by the idea that they could change their life forever.

For me the “choice” not to gamble is super easy, but someone else might have a ton of difficulty making the same “choice” as me, and even if they succeed a hundred times it’s just constantly wearing them down until they eventually cave.

I don’t know what the full answer is. I personally find power in identifying that my addiction was a choice (that same power helped me quit! Clean for over 7 years now).

If someone else does or doesn’t feel the same way about their situation, it doesn’t really affect me, because either way I can still choose to treat them with compassion, understanding, and respect. I don’t really care if, when someone needs help, it was an uncontrollable act of nature or a mess they created for themselves or whatever. If they’re ready to get help, then I think we should help either way

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- Patnou@lemmy.world ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
  Just wanted to avoid the conversation of I was born this and that way. Becoming a big deal in this thread. Nothing against it it’s just the US keeps telling us how it is pure evil or pure good for the person. Kind of wanted to keep politics and agenda’s out of this. That way we can focus on choice. That is what my first sentence meant.
  
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  - Carnelian@lemmy.world ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
    Sorry so I mean, I literally just don’t know what you’re referring to exactly by “physicality and the tran debate” so that it can be taken out of the discussion. I guess from your reply just now that it has something to do with avoiding arguing about transgender people but I don’t see the relevance to the rest of your question.
    
    Otherwise I hope I was able to respond to what you were asking!
    
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  - joeljoelle@piefed.blahaj.zone ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
    You can’t take it out of the conversation, that is the entire conversation; it is not a choice it is there all along, there are people who want to make you think it’s a choice, but it’s not. The only choice involved is listening to yourself and who you are because there are a lot of people who would have you deny who you really are, then you become miserable and sad and just consume, I was there. If it was it’s not a choice anyone would even gain anything from making in this society, as far as we have come there is so much more to be done as far as people’s views on the whole LGBTQIA+ spectrum
    
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