This is like saying if Australia has multiple states, then there must be a state where Australia doesn’t exist
Shrodinger’s Megamind
Submitted 1 year ago by neutralbipolar2@lemmy.world to [deleted]
Comments
HardlightCereal@lemmy.world 1 year ago
BarrelAgedBoredom@lemmy.world 1 year ago
… but Australia doesn’t exist???
db2@lemmy.one 1 year ago
He’s taking about Spiderland, which is dangerous if King Arachnos hears of it.
Afghaniscran@feddit.uk 1 year ago
Makes sense, for the universe with no multiverse theory to exist they have to be part of the multiverse since we exist in a universe where it does.
HardlightCereal@lemmy.world 1 year ago
And also, multiverses aren’t part of universes. There isn’t a state where countries don’t exist, because countries aren’t part of states. States are part of countries.
Aceticon@lemmy.world 1 year ago
A multiverse is something external to any one universe in that multiverse, so even in an infinity number of universes there cannot be one which redefines what’s outside that universe.
The way it was stated is not a paradox, it’s simply logically invalid.
Valid statements would be that in a multiverse there can be one universe where it’s impossible to access the rest of the multiverse or that there can be one universe were the theory of the multiverse was never and will never be defined.
And then of course, we come to @Carnelian’s point, which is that it’s perfectly possible to have an infinity of possibilities which are all bound by certain rules. A simple mathematical example: there is an infinite number of decimal numbers in between the integers 0 and 1.
Buddahriffic@lemmy.world 1 year ago
Yeah, if there’s a multiverse where all possibilities play out, and if any universe can directly affect another, then there’s an infinite number of universes that do affect or get affected by others and there’s an infinite number of universes that don’t.
Just like time travel with multiple timelines. If you travel back in time, you’re splitting off at least 3 timelines. One is the original where the past remains unchanged and you timetravel, one is the original where the past is the same and you fail to timetravel, and one is the original timeline up to the point that you travel to, at which point it diverges probably very drastically (which makes me think that traveling back in time will be a one way trip because your original timeline won’t be very close to the new one’s future). Though if you can travel back to the future, there will be one version where you never do to pair with the one where you do.
Though I’m not holding my breath on any kind of direct influence between universe and timelines other than maybe something like gravity from one can affect others, and really don’t think that traveling from one to another will be possible. But who knows what is really possible, as advanced as we might be compared to our past, I wouldn’t be surprised if our knowledge is still just a drop out of a whole ocean.
hopelessbyanxiety@lemmy.world 1 year ago
are u saying that all those who up voted the meme, did it just bc they didn’t understand what they were reading? tbh i didn’t even understand the first sentence you wrote. That means you must be very smart. Not sure if i will up vote u
Rodeo@lemmy.ca 1 year ago
A multiverse is made up shit and there’s no set of objective rules about what can and cannot be.
Unless you have some official document of multiverse rules produced by someone who isn’t just making shit up (i.e. Marvel).
0ops@lemm.ee 1 year ago
What always bothered me about multiverse moves is how a person’s life could be so different across universes, even though their ancestors lives must’ve been fairly consistent across universes or they wouldn’t exist. Hell, forget about whether you would be born, would humans even evolve? Would life even evolve? A lot happened between the big bang and your conception. A lot could’ve happened. I’m just talking out of my ass though
samus12345@lemmy.world 1 year ago
Lith@lemmy.sdf.org 1 year ago
I often think about the silicon lifeform from A Martian Oddity because of how uniquely different it is from the carbon-based lifeforms we’re used to seeing even in science fiction.
misterundercoat@lemmy.world 1 year ago
You are correct in thinking that there would be an infinite subset of universes where humans never evolved. However, there would also be a much smaller, but still infinite, subset of universes where humans did evolve. And there would be a muuuuuch smaller, but still infinite, subset of universes where the history of the universe and all of human history transpired exactly as it did in our universe, up until the point it diverged with the necessary changes in order to be relevant to the plot of the movie. That tiny tiny tiny subset is the only thing we talk about in movies, because otherwise it would be too confusing for general audiences. Hope this helps.
0ops@lemm.ee 1 year ago
That’s a good point. A fraction of infinity is still infinity
GBU_28@lemm.ee 1 year ago
Such movies generally explain it as there are other universes locally clustered to yours. As in, there are so many universes that some are only a few decisions/variables off yours
samus12345@lemmy.world 1 year ago
Although ones like Star Trek’s Mirror Universe are absurd. If humans remained that warlike and aggressive the timeline would be drastically different, with few counterparts existing.
ultratiem@lemmy.world 1 year ago
One small change can lead to a totally divergent path. Think about it this way. You are supposed to meet your SO today at work. But you forgot to brush. No big deal. Right? Well your SO says hello, so you say it back and then she gets a whiff. Well end of conversation and that’s that. No wife. No kids. Not with her.
Or maybe you miss that buss that you barely caught. Or maybe you win the lotto at 19 and that changes everything for you.
You’re thinking wrong if you think lives have to be drastically different in every way for it to manifest as a whole new life. It can be the smallest thing but that tiny, infinitesimal thing can lead to a cascade of change or shunt people down an entirely different path.
Lastly, your ancestors would also be subject to these events, making all their lives very different as well.
Butterfly Effect.
bric@lemm.ee 1 year ago
right, but some movies show universes with very different pasts that still show a weirdly similar present. As you said, the smallest of things in the past should cause the present to be even more different, but in many movies that’s not the case
001100010010@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 year ago
There is a universe within the multiverse where people doesn’t believe in the multiverse, but not believing doesn’t mean it isn’t real.
Conversely, there could be only one universe and that sole universe believes in the multiverse, which doesn’t exist.
InternetTubes@lemmy.world 1 year ago
There is a multiverse, it exists and is called the realm of thought. There is a universe where it isn’t, it’s called reality.
Diprount_Tomato@lemmy.world 1 year ago
Based and fuck multiverses pilled
snake_case@feddit.uk 1 year ago
Let’s say the theory of infinite multiverses is correct This means that there must be a multiverse where a version of me is able to traverse the multiverse. Then if there is an infinite version of this verse, then surely one of them will choose to visit my verse. Therefore doesn’t this disprove the infinite multiverse theory? As no one has visited me yet?
bric@lemm.ee 1 year ago
Or the laws of physics are just the same between all of the multiverses, and it’s impossible to travel between them. Maybe the walls between universes are so thick that nobody will ever even detect that the other universes are there at all, making it basically the same as there being no other universes in the first place
Morose@lemmy.world 1 year ago
There could be different laws of physics in this universe that makes it near impossible for somebody outside of it to visit. Or, from another perspective, would you wilingly visit yourself?
db2@lemmy.one 1 year ago
The real question here is how many would Loki themselves silly.
CarbonIceDragon@pawb.social 1 year ago
Well, no, for a few reasons:
We don’t know that, if multiverses are real, that it is possible to travel between them. Infinite variations doesn’t guarantee this, because that just effectively means that all possible universes exist. Were multiverse travel to turn out to be impossible, then nowhere in an infinite multiverse would it exist.
Smaller and larger infinities exist. If the set of universes where you exist is larger than the set of universes where you have multiverse travel, then most of the time, you won’t be in a universe that gets you a visit, even though the number of both is infinite.
If the way the system works is that a new universe is created for each possibly each time something happens, then every time someone travels to a different universe, it will diverge into one where the visitor arrives, and one representing the option that the visitor does not arrive. No matter how much travelling is done, there will still be a set, indeed an infinite one, representing the scenario where no visitor arrives is what happens every single time any multiverse travel occurs. In that set of universes, you never have received any visits.
InternetTubes@lemmy.world 1 year ago
I’ll tell you what, I’ll you a universe inside a multiverse that is essentially unreachable and for all intensive purposes could be treated as a universe where the multiverse is false, are we good?
raltoid@lemmy.world 1 year ago
Quantum fluctuation
LazaroFilm@lemmy.world 1 year ago
Are the laws of physics different between each universe? In that case there’s a universe with no gravity…
Spudwart@lemmy.world 1 year ago
Multiverse theory is based on quantum theory.
Observation of an election of infinite “possibilities” results in collapse of the wave that encapsulates those possibilities into a single outcome.
You can have the electrons from an electron gun start all shooting into one direction based on whether it’s observed or not. And that’s because each electron is equally likely at all times to go in any direction along its waveform of possibilities. But it will never suddenly start firing lead particles or entire dogs.
The universe in which multiverse theory can’t work would be an isolated universe in which every outcome is already observed and quantum theory and waveforms like the ones discussed before can never be observed.
It doesn’t mean multiverse theory isn’t real, it just means that universe can’t ever even grasp the idea because it’s in a situation where it’s like a 1D person trying to understand a 3D world. There’s enough of a gap that it’s feasible that no intelligent life could ever come to the conclusion they’re an outlier.
Being a sample size of 1 is the most difficult hurdle to overcome in science. And in truth we’re also a sample size of 1 until we somehow manage to make contact with other universes.
x4740N@lemmy.world 1 year ago
Megamind would just be explaining an omniverse
p3tricor@sh.itjust.works 1 year ago
W movie, W post
Carnelian@lemmy.world 1 year ago
This is actually a huge pet peeve of mine. Just because there are an infinite number of possibilities doesn’t mean anything is possible
Let’s investigate the list of natural numbers. 1, 2, 3, 4, etc. It stretches on for infinity, but nowhere in this infinite set will you find the number 2.5. Or negative 1. Or countless other examples.
Next let’s consider a warehouse with an infinite number of CDs, each burned with a copy of the Donkey Kong Country soundtrack. Each of these discs are different. They have slight differences in the label, diameter, and flatness, due to manufacturing tolerances. They have different random bits that get flipped sometimes due to solar particle collision and quantum variation, which may eventually make different discs unreadable. They decay over the centuries at different rates, due to temperature and sun exposure differences in the warehouse (climate control for an infinite space is very expensive).
Each of these discs are, materially speaking, completely different from one another. But, from the perspective our or limited human perception, they are for the time being completely interchangeable. Whichever one you select, you will listen to and have the same experience.
This is by far the most likely scenario if we indeed live in a multiverse. An infinite number of earths, with an infinite number of you, lives filled with all the same mistakes and triumphs, all reading this comment together right now.
Klear@lemmy.world 1 year ago
What blew my mind is that it hasn’t been proven that pi contains an infinte number of ones, for instance. It’s not out of the question that there is a decimal place where the last 1 appears and there are none from then on.
It’s not really likely, but we simply don’t know and it is possible. It sounds weird given how many decimals of pi we’ve calculated, until you realise we’ve literally calculated 0% of them.
Carnelian@lemmy.world 1 year ago
Yeah! It’s a really beautiful thing to think about. And exciting to imagine we may one day see a mathematician who works out the truth
bric@lemm.ee 1 year ago
Yep! Pi might be a “Normal” irrational number, which is a really poorly named classification that basically means that the “random” arrangement of numbers in pi isn’t weighted and so you’ll end up with 1 in 10 digits being 1, and that that will be true for all bases. We’re kind of at a point where we think Pi is “normal”, but we can’t prove it.
If it is “normal” though, then that means that you could find any arbitrary sequence of numbers inside of pi, somewhere. Meaning that in base 128, pi would contain the ascii sequence for every book ever written, every book that ever will be written, every book that could be written, the accurate date of your death, and anything else you could ever imagine. Again, that’s not proven, but we think it’s the case
rockSlayer@lemmy.world 1 year ago
From a mathematical standpoint you’re right, but from the standpoint of application pi has an infinitesimal accuracy without going to 45 digits. At 3.1415926535, we’re more accurate than the distance between 3 atoms.
TonyTonyChopper@mander.xyz 1 year ago
CDs are optical storage, just plastic with tiny bumps. It’s magnetic and solid state storage that can have bit flipping.
Carnelian@lemmy.world 1 year ago
Ah, but you see, this example takes place in the universe where CDs are susceptible as well
paddirn@lemmy.world 1 year ago
Whenever I think about the possibility of a Multiverse it just gets so unbelievably convoluted that I can’t believe that that’s how the Universe/Multiverse actually exists. Is the idea that every potential change in every atom or event in the Universe leads to all these other Universes, all co-existing, no matter how small & insignificant the differences? So we’d have a ridiculous number of Universes whose sole difference from ours is that a single atom behaved slightly differently in a rock out in the parking lot. Then multiply that by EVERY possible atom in the entire Universe, all behaving slightly differently.
That’s just physical matter, what about conscious decisions made by living things? So in one Universe I filled my bowl of cereal with X oz of milk VS another universe where I filled it with X+1 oz of milk, and so on. All these micro-decisions that branch out into separate timelines, multiplied by the number of living entities in the Universe, every second of every day.
So are new Universes just constantly springing into existence at every moment in time, connected to every atom and every living thing, just brought about by tiny differences? I write some gobbledygook here: aksfhkashdf in one universe, adshfoasfdoajsidd in another, pooigjmasiodmfas in another, and so on. Multiple universes all suddenly springing into existence based on random key presses? Universes can’t possibly be that “easy” to create can they, all that mass and energy, just poofed into existence, and it’s constantly happening every second? Is mass, energy, and space just meaningless?
Or is it some other more basic set of differences describe the universe, just the starting conditions are different, but from there, each different Universe just proceeds as is, without multiple branching timelines? I’m not smart enough to understand any of it, it just quickly gets so incredibly convoluted and complicated for me to wrap my brain around.
Sotuanduso@lemm.ee 1 year ago
There are a few possibilities:
Notorious_handholder@lemmy.world 1 year ago
I think a lot of people assume a multiverse works that way because popular fiction makes it look like it does. However popular fiction is using something more akin to an omniverse (idk if there is an actual agreed scientific definition for a collection of multiple multiverses so Im just using that).
Using your analogy with the donkey kong discs being different universes with slight alterations in the warehouse (multiverse). In an omniverse scenario that you see in popular fiction, next door you’d have another warehouse but instead of donkey kong discs it is mario discs, or maybe donkey kong plushies.
However again that’s all speculative of if there even is a multiverse let alone something larger than that
funkless@lemmy.world 1 year ago
due to the nature of infinity — a la monkeys and typewriters — you could have not only a single CD that due to a catastrophic series of errors is actually something completely different from a CD — but an infinite number of them.
Is it entirely beyond the realms of possibility that an infinitesimally small stroke of luck could create a sentient race of CD people? Except “small” doesn’t make sense in infinity — “small” just means “a less common certainty”
Carnelian@lemmy.world 1 year ago
An infinite series of random letters would of course contain every book, that’s definitionally true.
But infinity itself does not empower the whims of the imagination (indeed this is the entire point). Yes, it is definitely impossible for the warehouse to contain a sentient race of CD people. Polycarbonate plastic simply cannot exhibit any of the qualities of being alive under any circumstances
TrismegistusMx@lemmy.world 1 year ago
You haven’t disproved anything. The common understanding of multiverses typically only extends to livable multiverses, but there are infinite multiverses capable of sustaining logic and organization, just as there are infinite universes of junk data.
Carnelian@lemmy.world 1 year ago
I have disproven that an infinite set necessarily contains every arbitrary possibility. And quite simply, too. Notice how the set of natural numbers does not contain any grapes.
Thus, the burden of proof is now on those who claim they do know what is in the multiverse. Such as yourself. What evidence do you have for these “junk data” universes?
HawlSera@lemm.ee 1 year ago
It seems inefficient to run so many instances of the same scenario