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Comment on How are slavery reparations fair?

Here’s a way to think of it:

If I steal all of your money and invest it to grow over time then I’ll end up with even more money while you don’t benefit from the growth that should have been yours. Now we have children and pass on our wealth. You pass on less because it was stolen, and I pass on more because of what I stole. This multiplies over the generations and a disparity is maintained. My offspring will have better educations and better opportunities because of the wealth they had access to, and yours will have fewer opportunities because you don’t have the money to spend on them.

The goal of reparations is to attempt to correct some of this disparity. It tries to provide opportunities for people who don’t have it but would have if something in the past weren’t stolen.

For an example that’s easy to see: In the US, black people are less likely to know how to swim. This has nothing to do with them being black, but what opportunities they had access to. This is for many reasons. One part of it is that most places had community pools, but they had restrictions for people of color. When this was outlawed, they instead just closed the pools or added memberships that required payment.

People also built up wealth over time through property, but black people were prevented from getting loans to buy property except in redlined places. This prevented them from building up generational wealth like white people were allowed to do. (This is ignoring the whole slavery thing…) It causes ripples through time where their children have less opportunities, which then causes their children to have fewer, and so on.

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Kaleunt17@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
The problem I have with this viewpoint is this.

Where does it start and where does it end?

World history is full of atrocities, crimes, war etc.

Additionally, many of the things which we now consider atrocity or crime might not even have been one in the past.

Fabricating such artificial claims is the same as Putin is doing by using the history book for creating claims on Ucraine.

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- NuPNuA@lemm.ee ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
  This has always been an issue I get stuck on. If we hold current people liable for the crimes of their ancestors, how far back do we go?
  
  The trans-atlantic slave trade was abhorrent, but slavery didn’t begin or end with it.
  
  Do Egyptians owe Jews reperations due to how they were treated? Should the Italians compensate half of Europe and North Africa for what the Romans did? Should Arab nations pay the UK and Ireland for the people kidnapped by the Barbary Pirates?
  
  The Ottomans were still keeping slaves until the early 1900s, long after the western European powers had ended the practice, why aren’t we seeing calls for reperations from Turkey to Slavic nations?
  
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  - orrk@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
    we go as for back as needed to achieve a somewhat just society.
    
    Let’s take your example of the Jews in Egypt (other than the fact that the source for Jewish slavery in Egypt is just religious texts without any archeological evidence ever found): is there some great opportunity divide between an Egyptian and an Israeli? no, so we obviously don’t need to worry about that.
    
    or for the Ottoman-Slavic question: do Slavic peoples have less opportunity than those of modern day Turkey? no, so we don’t need to worry about that.
    
    and yes, Italians (and many other parts of Europe) do send different types of aid to Africa for these reasons
    
    Do Black people in the USA have massive opportunity differences in comparison to the WASP population? yes, they do, thus it is right to conduct these reparations. You may not be the only people to have committed slavery, but you sure still wear it proudly, and you are still a deeply systemically racist nation.
    
    TLDR: it’s not about revenge, but righting wrongs.
    
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    NuPNuA@lemm.ee ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
    You seem to be operating under the assumption I’m American, I’m not.
    
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  - Savvy95@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
    Even currently in some rich Middle East countries, there are technically slave workers - construction & household to name 2.
    
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    NuPNuA@lemm.ee ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
    Exactly, maybe we should worry more about ending it now than what happened two centuries ago.
    
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- funkless_eck@sh.itjust.works ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
  this is why the slippery slope fallacy is a fallacy
  
  “if we punish people for murder, what about self defense?”
  
  or
  
  “if we arrest people for selling meth, it’ll end up making the state arrest people who drink coffee”
  
  you can legislate for a specific instance and not have it spiral out of control into insanity.
  
  Maybe some people would try to seek reparations for ridiculous stuff. It’s exactly the purview of the law, politics and diplomacy to navigate that.
  
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  - Dark_Arc@social.packetloss.gg ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
    This isn’t a slippery slope fallacy. Nobody’s saying “if we let the gays marry the next thing that will happen is people will want to marry animals!”
    
    What people are saying is, okay if this is being done in the interest of fairness, who else needs considered, and is it practical to consider them? Are we ever actually going to be able to achieve something close to fair?
    
    In the US a great example in this discussion is native Americans. Do they get more or less for having their entire society destroyed, land confiscated, being driven on death marches to far away land, repeated treaty violations, decimated by smallpox, and many of the other tournaments?
    
    I have native American, German, and Scottish ancestors that never owned a slave. I don’t have “African”, Irish, or “Asian” ancestors.
    
    Do I get a check, do I get excluded, or do I pay for the sins of someone else’s forefathers? And then because… despite all the struggles my ancestors endured themselves, I lived in a country that’s trying to reconcile past sins of slavery they had nothing to do with directly (and hopefully were opposed to)?
    
    Fact of the matter is, native americans suffered horribly, they just don’t exist in any kind of numbers to make a stink about it, and many of them bred into the white population.
    
    We’re never going to get to “even” and we seriously need to consider if more unfair government wealth distribution is the solution to previous unfair government wealth distribution.
    
    Hell I’m a full on Democrat and I strongly believe this will only make race relations worse. Like by a factor of 100 if they did that here. Two wrongs don’t make a right, and there’s no way sufficient time money and resources will be spent to actually make anything resembling fair happen here or in the US; you can’t do that when you’re trying to score political points.
    
    Governments should be trying to help people from where they are now, not trying to reverse history and retroactively remedy history spread across hundreds of years.
    
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- Cethin@lemmy.zip ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
  Honestly, it should never stop. There should be wealth, inheritance, and estate taxes that even out advantages and disadvantages over time. Poor people shouldn’t be paying for it because of their race, rich people should because of their advantages.
  
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  - shastaxc@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
    This is just communism. Weekly distribute wealth until everyone is equal. You don’t even need to bring race into the equation to achieve the same results as being proposed here.
    
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    hypna@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
    This is not communism.
    
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    Honytawk@lemmy.zip ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
    Communism wouldn’t even have a need for money, so distributing wealth wouldn’t exist.
    
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- NotSoCoolWhip@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
  Well considering the last slave (coerced labor) was freed in the 1940s, it’s still extremely recent. These are people’s grandparents and great-grandparents. The velocity of money is very real.
  
  youtu.be/j4kI2h3iotA?si=3h8t3bfODPKhULp1
  
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jemorgan@lemm.ee ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
This is hard for me to commit to an opinion on. I totally understand the argument that systemic injustices of the past have impacts today on the opportunities presented to descendants of affected individuals, therefore proactive steps are required to achieve equity. But solutions like requiring blanket reparations from one race to another seem to take for granted that everyone of the first race has been equally privileged by historical injustices, while everyone of the second race has been equally disadvantaged.

This obviously isn’t true. People of color are disproportionately likely to be disadvantaged, but there are people of color who lead highly privileged lives, and there are white people who are highly disadvantaged due to coming from low socioeconomic class, poor health, lack of access to education, etc.

The concept of reparations being paid on a basis of race necessarily involves the government forcing disadvantaged white, Asian, Latino, and other non-black people to become more institutionally disadvantaged, so that a group that contains highly privileged people of color can become more economically advantaged.

Something absolutely needs to be done, we need to be actively fighting for equity, but it’s hard for me to accept an argument that that should be done on the basis of race instead of addressing the causes of class-based inequality that will benefit disadvantaged black people along with disadvantaged people of other races.

For example, instead of seeking to improve the intergenerational income mobility of POCs in a system that restricts the income mobility of those without wealthy parents, we should fix the system and ensure a level playing field between someone who is born to high-school drop outs, and someone who was born to Ivy League graduates.

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- Cethin@lemmy.zip ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
  I don’t know who implied paying it would be based on race. It should be based on class. Rich people are rich because they had advantages and exploited people. They should be taxed and the money should be used to raise up people who weren’t as advantaged or exploitative.
  
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  - yiliu@informis.land ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
    That’s not reparations for slavery, then. That’s just redistribution.
    
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  - jemorgan@lemm.ee ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
    The entire concept of reparations for slavery is that non-black people will be forced to pay black people money, either as a one time lump-sum payment, or an open-ended pseudo-UBI. Some suggestions include mandated documentation of ancestral slabery, but the most popular ones don’t. The vehicle for this payment would be either increased taxes, or redirection of taxes.
    
    If you’re not talking about race-based redistribution of wealth, you’re not talking about ‘reparations,’ which is what this thread is about.
    
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- gothicdecadence@lemm.ee ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
  This is how I tend to view it too. We should be raising all poor people up and target wealth equality for everyone, regardless how they got there. I suppose reparations to POC would be a step in that direction but it by nature excludes people who might need help now. Idk, it’s a hard subject for me to form a solid opinion on too but I think social safety nets need to be prioritized for all.
  
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  - orrk@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
    sure, but now you are a godless commie who hates America.
    
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    gothicdecadence@lemm.ee ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
    Meh, fuck the people who think that. They don’t contribute to a healthy, functioning society
    
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    Omniraptor@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
    That’s what it always boils down to, which is why I am now actually a communist.
    
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tills13@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
This is also why affirmative hiring and admission isn’t “racist against white people” as people see it as. It’s actually leveling the playing field.

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- HiggsBroson@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
  Before implementing things like affirmative action or reparations, do any of us have any idea in mind for when reparations will be done making things “fair”? Or is the intent to have it go on forever? I’ve never heard this argument before and I’ve never heard of anyone having a set date for the end of affirmative action and the like, so it sounds like a slippery slope to future discrimination. This is probably what at least some of the “racist against white people” (and asian people) crowd are complaining about. I know I would be miffed if I lost an academic or career position to an objectively lower quality candidate due to something like government mandated diversity, regardless of how much I support civil rights. Obviously, ideally, everyone should have equal access to these opportunities and no one should be unable to get the education they want but that isn’t the kind of world we live in (at least in the USA).
  
  Also, why can’t there be other ways to level the playing field in terms of environment, such as funding better schooling or housing for disparaged individuals, regardless of race? Despite black people having to fight an uphill battle in life, these things that uplift across the board without racial or ethnic discrimination would naturally end up helping them out more than others before leveling out as equality is achieved. The only problem, as always, is the bureaucracy involved.
  
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- Apollo@sh.itjust.works ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
  A program that white people are excluded from isn’t racist?
  
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BeautifulMind@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
There were families that made Bezos-class money at the height of slavery, and those families’ descendants are still rich today.

At the very least, these families shouldn’t be anonymously rich, they should be infamously rich, notoriously so. Even if a truth-and-reconciliation process is ‘too much’, let us at least have the truth out, and loud.

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nomadjoanne@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
I don’t know. Plenty if other groups arrived much later in western countries, often with little or nothing to their names and feeling persecution, and have done much much better.

I’ll give you that the specter of discrimination still haunted western institutions until quite recently. But blacks were not the only group that faced discrimination.

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- FUBAR@lemm.ee ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
  I am not black or white. I can offer a perspective of an immigrant who isn’t white. Looking at how blacks were targeted for arrests and the disproportionate amount of arrests while being brought up in economically challenging environments, it is very hard to “move up”.
  
  I immigrated to a western country with qualifications and with a good sum in my bank account and still it was challenging. I cannot imagine how generational oppression will do to a persons psyche and their worldview.
  
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- Cethin@lemmy.zip ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
  I used black people as an example, not to say they’re the only group. Literally everyone has been exploited by the rich.
  
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Jeanschyso@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
That’s not a reparations issue, it’s an unfuck the cities that were fucked by Robert Moses and his buddies as well as funding public schools better, making hospitals public instead of privately owned, and changing the punitive justice system to a proper rehabilitation justice system.

Otherwise you’ll just see short term happiness and provide arguments for “we’re equal now, we paid reparations! What else do you want?”

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- Cethin@lemmy.zip ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
  I’d say both are required, and also reparations should never end. The rich should be taxed for their advantages and exploitation and money should be used to help raise poor people up. The problem can never be fixed. There will always be advantaged and disadvantaged people and exploiters and exploited people. Implying it should be a one time payment for a one time thing I think is missing what is trying to be solved.
  
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