Comment on I'm right and the other vegans are wrong

• 9point6@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  I’m not at all, vegan as a personal trait is a bit of a broad church these days.

  There’s the people that are mostly motivated by the not-killing-animals thing

  Then there’s the ones doing it predominantly for environmental reasons

  Then you’ve got the ones doing it for various health reasons

  Then you’ve got people doing it predominantly for cost reasons (fewer here, given vegan is still treated as a luxury aspect in a lot of food categories)

  Those groups do not have to overlap in views at all. It’s entirely expected for there to be disagreement and purity test drama given that IMO

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  • igmelonh@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    Yeah, I’m not in any vegan groups but I’ve seen (what is hopefully) a vocal online minority of those who use the label for killing-is-wrong reasons angrier at folks using it for any other reason than they are at folks who do consume animal products, insisting that the other camps should use “plant-based (diet)” instead.

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  • stickyprimer@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    Honey seems similar to milk - we’re harvesting a secretion. But I think vegans care about more than just killing animals - it’s also about enslaving them, for lack of a better word. Cruelty. And I don’t know enough to argue whether bees are free. It seems like they are - they leave their hives and then return. But their Queen does get moved around by the beekeeper and they are bound to her… its an interesting one.

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• wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyz ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  Honey is an animal byproduct, so technically it is non-vegan, but I think that’s kind of pedantic because the bees (ideally) aren’t harmed by the apiaries, and the relationships is more of symbiosis rather than exploitation.

  I’ve tried explaining this to vegans and they get really hostile about how apiaries are bee slavery and we need to abolish all forms of subjugation and exploitation, and that I’m a colonialist pig for not seeing it that way.

  They also talk about some of the problems with large-scale apiary practices. But those problems are very much known within beekeeping communities, and the average small-time beekeeper is as upset as any vegan about giant corporate monocultures spreading parasites and diseases.

  The beekeepers are also very active in trying to solve that problem by regulating large-scale apiary practices, monitoring bee colonies, medicating, funding (and participating in) research, etc… All stuff that most vegans couldn’t be bothered to do.

  It’s a bit like being against backyard chickens because Tyson and Perdue are an evil industrial ag duopoly.

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  • Spur4383@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    So… they saw the bee movie and considered a documentary?

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    • Nugscree@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      Critical thinking skills are on an all time low

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  • ccunning@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    Do/can domesticated bees swarm/rewild?

    If so it seems like it would be the best argument that bee keeping was mutually consensual.

    It’s a bit like being against backyard chickens because Tyson and Perdue are an evil industrial ag duopoly

    Are there apiary industry standards/certifications? It seems unlikely most folks are buying the backyard chicken version of honey.

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    • wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyz ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      Do/can domesticated bees swarm/rewild?

      It is possible. When a colony grows too large for the hive it produces a new queen and then splits itself in half. Usually beekeepers who monitor their colonies notice this and start a new hive, but if left to do their own thing (and if there’s not a queen trap on the entrance) then one of the queens will take half the colony and go search for a place to build a new hive.

      If so it seems like it would be the best argument that bee keeping was mutually consensual.

      I generally agree, but how do you define that? You can’t exactly get a bee to sign a legal document. Sure you could opt against using a queen trap, and make your hive as enticing as possible so they stay. A good apiary will provide ideal conditions, and cultuvate botanical and herb gardens in the immediate surroundings. Basically make it a paradise for bees, and give them medicine too.

      Just because some people abuse their dogs doesn’t mean pet-keeping as a whole should be damned. Punish the abusers and prevent the abuse as much as you can. But don’t take away granny’s sweet little shitzu just because Dale down the street kicks his pit.

      Are there apiary industry standards/certifications?

      That unfortunately depends on the state. Some do a better job than others.

      It seems unlikely most folks are buying the backyard chicken version of honey.

      Yes but try asking a vegan “Is it fine if I only choose local honey?”

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• kestrel7_7@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  I’ve known people who called themselves vegan and still ate fish, there are basically no rules

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  • wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyz ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    That’s pescatarian, not vegan. Whoever said that was wrong.

    But I recognize that confidently saying something is wrong is viewed as arrogant these days. We have to respect everyone’s subjectivity, even if that means not saying anything even when they’re blatantly wrong.

    Like “No, don’t keep walking forward. There’s a cliff in front of you.” “DON’T TELL ME WHAT TO DO! YOU CAN’T CONTROL ME.”

    Toxic positivity has seeped way too far into the collective unconscious…

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    • Seppo@sopuli.xyz ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      Vegan means whatever.

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    • OwOarchist@pawb.social ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      That’s pescatarian, not vegan. Whoever said that was wrong.

      (And for some reason, ‘vegetarian’ has gone completely out of fashion…)

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    • kestrel7_7@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      They justified it as something to do with fish/shellfish not having the same kind of pain receptors and consciousness that “real” animals do and argued it was more akin to consuming fungi and bacteria

      I don’t agree with them, and I do agree with everything you said here. I’m just saying, based on experiences in the field, when someone says to me “I’m vegan” internally I’m like “cool, so you eat whatever you want, just like everyone else” 😂

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• lime@feddit.nu ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  yeah the fda classifies it as a meat product.

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  • remon@ani.social ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    That’s just a myth spread around the internet.

    Their actual definition is:

    Reference materials in the public domain define honey as “a thick, sweet, syrupy substance that bees make as food from the nectar of plants or secretions of living parts of plants and store in honeycombs.”2 FDA has concluded that this definition accurately reflects the common usage of the term “honey

    www.fda.gov/media/110846/download

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    • lime@feddit.nu ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      a definition is not a classification though. how to they categorise it?

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      • remon@ani.social ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

        As “Honey, jams, jellies, fruit butter, molasses”

        www.fda.gov/product-categories-and-products

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• infinitesunrise@slrpnk.net ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  There is far more debate about veganism within veganism than there is outside of veganism.

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• stickyprimer@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  Again, can’t tell if that’s because you think it’s an insignificant issue, or if you think the answer is obvious, and if so which answer you think that is. Are you being funny on purpose? If so bravo.

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  • ccunning@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    Again, can’t tell if that’s because you think it’s an insignificant issue, or if you think the answer is obvious, and if so which answer you think that is. Are you being funny on purpose? If so bravo.

    Again? Have we talked about this before?

    As a non-vegan who doesn’t spend much time in vegan spaces I wouldn’t say it’s insignificant, but if it hadn’t been brought to my attention as a topic of debate amongst vegans I never would have considered it. I’ve just had a pretty cut and dry understanding that animal products are not vegan.

    You can see in my other comments here, my speculation as to how that could be the wrong take. Not because I think any one side or the other is right or wrong, but just trying to understand each position.

    I usually am trying to be funny, but not in this case. I’m mostly just disappointed in myself for not knowing why my comment would be funny 😒

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    • stickyprimer@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      Again?

      I just meant that you were replying to a comment about not being able to discern someone’s true opinion and it was kind of hard to discern the true opinion behind your very reply. That was the “again” part - recursion. I thought perhaps you were being deliberately witty. I would honestly appreciate that kind of humor, in all sincerity. I didn’t mean to make fun of you like haha you’re funny you clown.

      I guess you actually meant yet another interpretation, which is that you simply never knew this was a thing and hadn’t imagined it, so were surprised. Fair enough!

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• Dojan@pawb.social ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  There are a lot of debates. Vegan as a diet vs. lifestyle for example.

  Some call themselves vegan when they have a plant-based diet, some insist that it’s a lifestyle and extend beyond just diet, into other aspects of life. Some are pro pets, others are against keeping animals at all.

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