Sometimes legends are important.
Comment on It's always been women in STEM.
ShinkanTrain@lemmy.ml 21 hours ago
You know that episode of The Simpsons where Lisa hides the fact the town founder being a bad person because it’d make the town sad?
That is me trying to hold back that, upon research, I found out that Fatima al-Fihriya is probably not a real person :(
fossilesque@mander.xyz 20 hours ago
drolex@sopuli.xyz 20 hours ago
I don’t agree here. Truth is important. The fact that women haven’t been visible in science is important. We need to explain why they weren’t visible. Creating historical figures is comforting but if their existence is not reliably documented, we should keep explaining why such figures couldn’t emerge, and why their absence is significant.
Yes to shitposts, no to fabrications (this lady looks like one - but I suppose it was in good faith)
shawn1122@sh.itjust.works 18 hours ago
What if the truth can’t be known as Ibn Abi Zar only wrote on this 500 years later and archaeological evidence is not definitive but the story has inspired countless young women in the Islamic world to pursue higher learning?
If an unverifiable story accomplishes the outcome of improving the visibility of women in science and higher education in general, how should we judge that? Would only 100% verifiable truth still take all precedence?
Finally, we have to ask why did this story (if it really is just a story) capture so many imaginations? What cultural current at the time made this gain popularity? Was there a thirst for women to be seen in this light that he was looking to quench?
Mouselemming@sh.itjust.works 17 hours ago
Or, if she did exist but almost nobody heard about her in the 500 years after her death, why would that have happened?
(Not taking a position on her existence, but thinking about Hatshepsut and many women whose accomplishments were ignored, hidden, or credited to men)
fossilesque@mander.xyz 19 hours ago
I think that both are important and can be used together as a tool. Idealism grounded in materialism. The legend itself is a tool for further discussions.
drolex@sopuli.xyz 19 hours ago
OK, I get your point - but I think then that it should be clearer if we’re talking about a historical figure or a legend. In this particular case, it’s a bit fuzzy unfortunately. Ancient historians and all that.
drmoose@lemmy.world 9 hours ago
Lies that white wash one of the most horrendous religions in the world are indeed important - just not the way you imply.
shawn1122@sh.itjust.works 18 hours ago
Difficult to verify does not mean untrue.
ameancow@lemmy.world 20 hours ago
I’ve come to accept that reality is far less important to our daily lives than narratives.
I mean, it’s a real depressing understanding of the world, but after you embrace it, you learn to work around it and it can even be a huge asset or tool for getting results and interacting with others.
For me personally, I want to learn the disappointing truth about everything, but for the vast majority of people, they will live their whole lives without ever needing or wanting to learn who actually said or did what in history. It’s fine. We can keep building stories to influence people to do better things. There is no cosmic arbiter of truth who is going to judge people for spreading a story that leads to better outcomes.
Velypso@sh.itjust.works 14 hours ago
Its not healthy to bury yourself in a false reality.
Thats some crazy ass shit.
ameancow@lemmy.world 11 hours ago
I care more about outcomes nowadays far more than if everyone is on the same page, that’s never going to happen.
athatet@lemmy.zip 16 hours ago
This is a crazy take. Misinformation is not all of the sudden good when it has a positive outcome.
Cethin@lemmy.zip 4 hours ago
I get where they’re coming from. It isn’t that mis/is-information is good. It’s just that they aren’t going to get the accurate information anyway.
For example, who actually created this university? Can you tell me? Does it actually matter? If this story causes good outcomes, where otherwise there would be a void of information which could be filled by someone else, then the story that causes good is the best option.
athatet@lemmy.zip 4 hours ago
Yes. You can look it up and see. Or even read more comments further down talking about it.
Yes it matters.
ameancow@lemmy.world 11 hours ago
It’s a pretty dumb trolly problem if you rather truth that hurts people than a fairy tale that actually helps people.
What’s crazy is holding onto the ideal that you can get everyone on the same page, interpreting the same things the same way. Our entire civilization is build on a palace of lies we will never have truth for, so I find I don’t feel bothered if people take inspiration from someone who may or may not have existed.
athatet@lemmy.zip 10 hours ago
Yeah but why not just find someone who actually existed to be inspired by instead of a lie?
“We don’t know so we might as well not bother learning” is also an incredibly wild take.
verdi@feddit.org 11 hours ago
👆 This is how we get Trump and reactionaries, it’s this idiotic take right here.
ameancow@lemmy.world 6 hours ago
It’s funny because we allow people to believe whatever crazy, insane fairy tales we want and even if they do harm, we say “well that’s their belief.”
I’m saying, if people are going to live in fantasy land, tell better fucking stories because our world is literally burning down on the backs of performative shits sitting on the computer being smug about what their perfect future looks like.
MummysLittleBloodSlut@lemmy.blahaj.zone 11 hours ago
I thought the antirealists were anarchists
MummysLittleBloodSlut@lemmy.blahaj.zone 11 hours ago
Hey cool a soulist