It’s definitely worse than not believing in magic
Comment on cis friend does witchcraft
A_Union_of_Kobolds@lemmy.world 16 hours agoAs if its any worse than the alternatives
RaivoKulli@sopuli.xyz 5 hours ago
A_Union_of_Kobolds@lemmy.world 4 hours ago
Man im too old to give a fuck what people believe anymore.
TheTechnician27@lemmy.world 11 hours ago
Is it though…? As stupid as the Abrahamic God is, at least you have a “God of the Gaps” thing going on where all God really has to be is someone with their own agency to grant you what you ask for and to determine where to place you in an untestable “afterlife”. Of course there’s an obvious cocktail of inherent contradictions when you choose “omniscient”, “omnipotent”, and “omnibenevolent” at the same time, but then you can appeal to the idea we wouldn’t possibly understand the whims of such a god outside of time and space. Again, stupid as fuck, but you can weasel your way out of anything.
But witchcraft? Okay, you’re transferring the agency to yourself, and you’re saying you can perform magic, but now you have no evidence you’re capable of jack shit and you have no excuse to pawn it off onto. You’ll never be able to do magic your entire life because it categorically isn’t real, so is the excuse that witches are real but you personally really suck as one? Is the idea that you do what “God” does and take credit for anything that vaguely “works” by sheer coincidence and ignore everything else? Do you only cast “spells” that function as placebos like easing someone’s pain or making them feel happy – similar to many prayers?
So now you’ve gone from untestable woo like the afterlife and testable but weaselable woo like prayers to woo that you should absolutely be able to test empirically because you’re in control of it.
Amnesigenic@lemmy.ml 9 hours ago
Prayers and spells are exactly the same behavior, a ritual for asking greater powers to intercede on your behalf. For people who genuinely believe in it there’s always some “works in mysterious ways” shit to justify when the thing they asked for never happens so they can keep believing it anyway, and as long as they ask in a vague enough way and on a vague enough timeline something will eventually happen that fits the bill close enough for them to call it a success. For people who don’t believe it literally but still participate it’s basically just ritualized affirmation, a self pep talk to make them feel more confident or prepared or calm using religious/occult symbolism to psychologically reinforce the effect.
TheTechnician27@lemmy.world 7 hours ago
Yeah, and what I think you missed is that I’m saying there are far fewer excuses for spells than there are for prayers. If we think of a prayer or spell like a transmission, that one starts and ends in our reality but can’t be measured by science is (even) dumber than one that starts above our reality by an omnipotent, hyperdimensional trickster set on not revealing itself.
A prayer means that someone else – infinitely wiser and outside time and space – will do this for you if they so choose. From this, you have near-infinite freedom to weasel around why your prayer was or wasn’t answered. You’ve made it unfalsifiable, which is intellectual sludge, but it means you’ve insulated yourself from being provably wrong.
But for “witchcraft”? Yes, this particular brand of delusion often turns to weasel spells (whereas I used to see a lot more of “I can do concrete, measurable things that couldn’t happen otherwise”), but given they’re making the action happen or creating a conduit for that action, there ought to be some physically observable explanation behind it. But apparently magic can interface with patterns of candles and lavendar and minerals and clockwise tea set up by some early 20s stoner in their parents’ basement but can’t be measured by science.
Amnesigenic@lemmy.ml 6 hours ago
Literally every single excuse for prayers not working can be employed for spells not working just as effectively, no modification required
Feyd@programming.dev 6 hours ago
The mechanism in both cases is that the practitioner does ritual and stuff happens because magic. Who gives a fuck what the magic is???
Feyd@programming.dev 6 hours ago
At least witches aren’t angling for a theocracy.
TheTechnician27@lemmy.world 4 hours ago
Sure. Doesn’t make them not stupid as hell; it just makes their beliefs less corrosive to society. I can imagine they’d be extremely toxic if they had widespread public support, but probably still not nearly as much as “I commune with an all-powerful sky daddy whose word is ultimate law that divides people between everlasting bliss and everlasting suffering and I can choose to believe whatever that word is” like Abrahamic religions.
Feyd@programming.dev 4 hours ago
Sure. I think anything that encourages people to believe things that they want to instead of because they’re true opens the way for them to apply that blind faith in other things that matter more, like politics. I do think organized religion is a bit worse because it also teaches subservience to undeserved authority.
Anyway, in the end, I’m waaay more worried about the one that is organized and has power than the people that aren’t bothering anybody and my opinions will reflect that.
Cruxifux@feddit.nl 6 hours ago
Sure but I’m not really interested in playing whataboutism games when we are talking about two different types of make believe.
Feyd@programming.dev 5 hours ago
Then don’t try to paint one as somehow more respectable? Or better yet just don’t respond to a comment if you don’t want to follow a side conversation? What a weird reply
Honytawk@feddit.nl 8 hours ago
The only viable religion is worshiping the sun, since that actually exists.
A_Union_of_Kobolds@lemmy.world 8 hours ago
I have said the exact same thing
Cruxifux@feddit.nl 16 hours ago
You say that as if you HAVE to believe in magic.
ThunderChunk@lemmy.dbzer0.com 16 hours ago
It’s a lot more fun to believe in magic when you know it’s not real than to actually believe in magic.
Cruxifux@feddit.nl 16 hours ago
True.
A_Union_of_Kobolds@lemmy.world 15 hours ago
So? Ffs have some fun with life before a climate emergency or secret police get to you.
Amnesigenic@lemmy.ml 9 hours ago
You don’t have to believe it literally to justify participating, plenty of people who understand rationally that prayer won’t instantly get them what they want still pray
Cruxifux@feddit.nl 6 hours ago
Yeah well that shit silly too.
otacon239@lemmy.world 6 hours ago
Mindfulness is its own reward and prayer, even to a rock, can help. It’s about surrendering and accepting that there is something in the universe that you have no power over.
It’s not about believing the rock is alive or capable or changing things for you, but by simply reframing your desires as a universal one rather than an internal/personal one you can find yourself motivated in a different way and opportunities may present themselves differently.
I’m also talking about the traditional concept of prayer, not whatever the fuck the Christian’s are doing.
Amnesigenic@lemmy.ml 6 hours ago
And? There’s more inportant shit to worry about than people being silly