The test to know if anything is an absolute truth is if it is called an absolute truth. If it is called an absolute truth, then it isnât an absolute truth. If it isnât called an absolute truth, then it isnât an absolute truth. Absolute truths donât exist. If someone tells you something is an absolute truth, stop listening to them.
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Zwiebel@feddit.org âš3â© âšweeksâ© ago
Calling a made up construct âthe absolute truthâ is hilarious
BackOnMyBS@lemmy.autism.place âš3â© âšweeksâ© ago
Ookami38@sh.itjust.works âš3â© âšweeksâ© ago
You could say itâs an absolute truth that absolute truths do not exist.
BackOnMyBS@lemmy.autism.place âš3â© âšweeksâ© ago
IndiBrony@lemmy.world âš3â© âšweeksâ© ago
What about my Sith friend?
samus12345@lemmy.world âš3â© âšweeksâ© ago
Theyâre made up constructs that reflect the absolute truth when applied correctly (from his perspective).
Phoenix3875@lemmy.world âš3â© âšweeksâ© ago
Well, it depends on your definition of truth and it could be the absolute truth by definition. A theorem is absolutely true in the same way that âa bachelor is an unmarried manâ is categorically true.
barsoap@lemm.ee âš3â© âšweeksâ© ago
âThis line on the map is perpendicular to this other line on the mapâ is not a statement about the territory.
i_love_FFT@lemmy.ml âš3â© âšweeksâ© ago
I was about to say âincompleteness theoremâ!
Srh@lemmy.world âš3â© âšweeksâ© ago
That just means we canât know everything about the system. Not that it is not true.
barsoap@lemm.ee âš3â© âšweeksâ© ago
Thatâs computer science alongside with Church/Turing. Maths could have tried to claim it but they doubled down on formalism so they donât deserve it.
That said though incompleteness follows from nothing but logical implication itself so itâs more fundamental than physics (try to imagine a physics without cause and effect) and philosophy (find me a philosopher who wasnât asleep during their logic lectures).
i_love_FFT@lemmy.ml âš3â© âšweeksâ© ago
Yeah, I meant to say that the incompleteness theorem proves that math cannot be perfectly pure and fundamental. I donât exactly care which field claims it, because I donât like to encourage artificial boundaries between disciplines. Itâs nice to use information theory results in physics :)
barsoap@lemm.ee âš3â© âšweeksâ© ago
The other way around: As long as you accept that cause and effect are a thing, you must accept that there are things that are, fundamentally, uncomputable. And as our universe very much does seem to have cause and effect thatâs a physical law, likewise is complexity theory. Differently put: God canât sort a list with fewer than O(n log n) comparisons.
Srh@lemmy.world âš3â© âšweeksâ© ago
Math ainât made up. Math is discovered.
WldFyre@lemm.ee âš3â© âšweeksâ© ago
I donât think thatâs a settled debate IIRC
MBM@lemmings.world âš3â© âšweeksâ© ago
The way I see it, axioms and notation are made up but everything that follows is absolute truth
luciole@beehaw.org âš3â© âšweeksâ© ago
Iâd say if your axioms donât hold you would go far in your quest for truth.
Malgas@beehaw.org âš3â© âšweeksâ© ago
The thing that is absolute is a predicate of the form âif [axioms] then [theorems]â.
And the fun thing about if statements is that they can be true even when the premise is false.
luciole@beehaw.org âš3â© âšweeksâ© ago
Of course in boolean algebra âif [false] then pâ is always true no matter âpâ, but itâs not telling us much.
lolcatnip@reddthat.com âš3â© âšweeksâ© ago
Thatâs not a gotcha. Itâs literally the point of stating axioms.
UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world âš3â© âšweeksâ© ago
Axioms can be demonstrated. They donât have to be purely theoretical.
Mass and Energy are axiomatic to the study of physics, for instance. The periodic table is axiomatic to understanding chemistry. You can establish something as self-evident thatâs also demonstrably true.
One could argue that mathematics is less a physical thing than a language to describe a thing. But once you have that shared language, you can factually guarantee certain fundamental ideas. The idea of an empty set is demonstrable, for instance. You can even demonstrate the idea of infinity, assuming youâre not existing in a closed system.
You can posit axioms that donât fit reality, too. And you can build up features of this hypothetical space that diverge from our own. But then you can demonstrate why those axioms canât apply to this space and agree as such with whomever youâre trying to convey ideas.
When we talk about âabsolute truthâ, weâre talking about a point of universal rational consensus. Mathematics is a language that helps us extend subjective observation into objective conclusion. Thatâs what makes it a useful tool in scientific inquiry.