Comment on Lord Lucifer, hear my prayers

orenj@leminal.space ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

• rockSlayer@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  No, Lucifer and Satan are the same entity. Satan’s name before he was cast out of heaven for heresy was Lucifer.

  Other figures like Baphomet, Mammon, Beelzebub, etc were pagan gods that Christianity coopted into being devils controlled by Satan to cause people to stray from God.

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  • Evil_Shrubbery@thelemmy.club ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    Well, all of them are from other religions, Lucy & god included.

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    • rockSlayer@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      Yes, there are lines that can be drawn between abrahamic religions and ancient Mesopotamian religion. I think there’s a fundamental difference between basing a religion on pre-existing mythos and coopting religions

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      • Evil_Shrubbery@thelemmy.club ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

        Yeah, but Satan (as an entity, not just a concept) is both.

        And we aren’t even sure when did Canaanite/Abrahamic religions become monotheistic, and I would classify at least that as a religion change (not the rituals/practical usage, but the core philosophy).

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    • teslekova@sh.itjust.works ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      No weh!

      Yah, weh.

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      • Evil_Shrubbery@thelemmy.club ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

        High weh even!
        (That’s when you take drugs to get closer to god.)

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• wolframhydroxide@sh.itjust.works ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  Literally ignore the other people. They clearly don’t know what they’re talking about. The name Lucifer originally referred to Venus, the morning star. It comes from Roman Latin, long before Christianity was a thing. The Hebrew name for Venus is mentioned a single time in the bible, referencing a Babylonian king who was given the title. You can probably thank St. Jerome for replacing the Hebrew name for the planet with “Lucifer”. Never, not once in the bible, is Lucifer conflated with the devil. In fact, even the original Satan was called the Adversary not because he was YHWH’s adversary, but because he was effectively God’s District Attorney, prosecuting the wrongs of mortals. The entire conflation with Satan as evil happened between the recording of the Hebrew bible and the development of Christianity. Hence why Satan is pretty much only mentioned in the New Testament.

  Pretty much every single thing modern Christians believe about the devil, or especially hell, was made up in the middle ages, and a hefty amount of that by Dante alone.

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  • rockSlayer@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    Hi, I’m one of the other people. Etymology is interesting and useful, but the question “what is Lucifer and how is he related to Satan” in the context about Christianity is specifically about dogma. When discussing dogma, etymology literally does not matter. Lucifer and Satan are the same, as defined by the church before the protestant movement, making it christian canon for all sects except Eastern Orthodoxy.

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    • wolframhydroxide@sh.itjust.works ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      The person asked the question, specifically, why Christians conflate the two, and whether it is true that they are always the same person. Notice that the question asks not just for a dogmatic response, but a comparative religious analysis. While it is true that “Christians treat them like the same person”, saying “they are the same person” doesn’t answer the question.

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      • rockSlayer@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

        Literally ignore the other people. They clearly don’t know what they’re talking about

        This is my issue with your previous comment. It’s clear to me that we interpreted the question differently. Different interpretations does not make either of us wrong. I chose to answer with established current beliefs, you chose to answer with theological history. Both are correct.

        medieval Christians conflated a lot of things, made up a bunch of demons

        This wasn’t just an organic movement of peasants creating their own interpretations. It was literally taught by the church. Your own source about Satan specifically talks mentions pope Gregory IX accusing Cathars as following a heretical religion of Lucifer. This suggests that Lucifer and Satan were considered the same by the church, long before the 11th century. The demons that were “made up” were almost all Pagan gods. It was a deliberate action by the church to get them to convert.

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  • Blue_Morpho@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    Use of the word Lucifer to mean Satan predates Dante.

    academia.edu/…/The_Use_of_the_Bible_in_the_Arenga…

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    • wolframhydroxide@sh.itjust.works ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      Absolutely! And I never claimed it didn’t. However, the solidification of what “hell” is, and what “Lucifer” looks like, is in large part thanks to popular sources like Dante and Milton.

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• s@piefed.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  Have you ever seen Lucifer and Satan at the same place at the same time though?

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• anise@quokk.au ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  as I understand it Satan is officially a title and means something like “the adversary”, and Lucifer got this title after being cast out of heaven

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  • Evil_Shrubbery@thelemmy.club ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    Lucifer was just farrying light (ferre lucis - the bringer of light), but that it just means morning star/Venus.

    But like all such texts and oral traditions the dude had several previous roles via random translations, misrememberings, story evolution, several distinct religions, mashups of all those, etc.

    I mean, look at this
    Image

    wiki/Lucifer

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    • Evil_Shrubbery@thelemmy.club ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      P.S.
      Hail Mrs Satan
      Image

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      • HeyThisIsntTheYMCA@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

        uh, hail mrs yourself?

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      • prettybunnys@piefed.social ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

        She could get hailed, ngl

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    • BigDiction@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      Oh yeah I cannot hang as an electrical engineer.

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• restingOface@quokk.au ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  Alright one of you who know whats up, whats the deal with spartan 117 and master chief? They’re different figures, right? Whats with the heathens using them interchangeably? And why dont they throw John Halo into the ‘same guy’ umbrella term of ‘demon’ too?

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