Comment on OnLy tWo eLemEnTs

• pennomi@lemmy.world ⁨17⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

  That’s a ridiculous definition conjured up by people trying to claim there’s only two sexes. It has effectively no practical use considering gametes on their own are useless for reproduction without an entire system of hardware surrounding them. Plus it guarantees at least three sexes - people who don’t produce gametes at all.

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  • powerstruggle@sh.itjust.works ⁨17⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    You’re kind of shooting the messenger here. It’s literally how sex is defined and used in biology, I’m just letting you know.

    Not producing gametes doesn’t confuse things. Nobody is born with a body organized around producing a third gamete size, or no gamete size.

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    • Carnelian@lemmy.world ⁨16⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      Nobody is born with a body organized around producing a third gamete size

      You say that because you incorrectly categorize genetic variations as a failed attempt at one of two binary options. It’s circular reasoning. You’re looking for a binary to sort things into, so regardless of the underlying truth, you sort everything into it.

      Like all smoking gun “binary” sex characteristics transphobes have honed in on over the years, we’re only talking about it because they arrived there from working backwards towards it. Just a few years ago all of these same talking points were “biological truth” regarding chromosomes (which you now openly concede are not reliable sex determinants)

      A thorough investigation of gametes reveals that like everything else in biology that’s paired off, it’s bipolar in nature rather than binary (strongly gathered up into two categories but with outliers and exceptions).

      Even ignoring gamete manifestation in all other species, which there is no reason to do other than to try and make a transphobic point, just among humans genetic variation occurs somewhat regularly. This is the basic principle that makes evolution possible, and it’s why other species have such insane gamete setups such that that gamete size cannot be used universally to determine sex.

      Ah but I forget we’re still just talking humans. Evolutionary scientists reveal that the simple reason intermediate gamete sizes do not proliferate in our species is because they have historically been outcompeted. This fact could not be true if there were no bodies born with a third gamete type

      An additional issue with this whole train of thought is the baseless presumption that normal biological variation precludes someone who was “supposed to be female” from producing the small gamete. It’s literally the meme we’re looking at in the OP: where the vast majority fits neatly into two categories, but if you were to try to work backwards from there and say everything must fit into those categories, you will have deprived yourself of even the most fundamental biological truths that describe our universe, and on a personal note, you will have deprived yourself of what makes biology beautiful.

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    • pennomi@lemmy.world ⁨17⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      That’s not true, there are definitely people both without any sex organs whose body “organization” is incapable of producing any gametes. There are people who are able to produce both gametes. Sticking your fingers in your ears and shouting LALALA does not make these people magically disappear. You cannot argue “well part of their body organization is invalid because of reasons”.

      This is classic Dunning-Kruger shit where just because you learned a little about gametes you think you’re an expert, but there’s a huge world of exceptions out there.

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      • powerstruggle@sh.itjust.works ⁨16⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

        What exactly do you mean by “has no concept”? I don’t think you quite understand what you’re talking about.

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    • meco03211@lemmy.world ⁨16⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      Biology doesn’t give special consideration for humans. We’re simply animals like the rest of the animal kingdom. Within the animal kingdom there are absolutely species with more than two sexes including more than two gamete sizes.

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      • powerstruggle@sh.itjust.works ⁨11⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

        You’re probably confusing sex with mating types. Sex is binary because there’s exactly two gamete sizes, eggs and sperm. Other species have gametes that are the same size, but those are called mating types and work very differently than sex.

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• FoxyFerengi@startrek.website ⁨16⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

  I provided several examples of chromosome combinations that result in people who produce no gametes. You’ve said in several comments that no one is born with a body plan that doesnt produce gametes, and that is incorrect. I’m a biology major, and I’m in a developmental biology class right now There are several points in development that can cause a failure to develop a sexual phenotype.

  I don’t know why you’re saying it’s a hard line that biologists have drawn, when science is about being able to adjust our understanding of the world when we are presented with new information

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  • powerstruggle@sh.itjust.works ⁨16⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    I didn’t say that nobody is born with a body that doesn’t produce gametes. I said nobody is born with a body organized around producing no gametes. Ask your professor about the difference.

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    • athatet@lemmy.zip ⁨16⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      So people who produce no gametes, their bodies are unorganized?

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      • FoxyFerengi@startrek.website ⁨16⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

        This is how I’m going to refer to myself from now on. “My name is FoxyFerengi. I have no pronouns because my body is unorganized.”

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• zalgotext@sh.itjust.works ⁨13⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

  Sex is defined by gamete size, because it’s the only common factor across so many different species.

  Dawg this isn’t even true. What was the publishing date of the last biology book you read? I think you need to update your knowledge. The current scientific and academic consensus is that neither sex nor gender are binary.

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  • powerstruggle@sh.itjust.works ⁨13⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    You unfortunately have a grossly distorted view of what the scientific consensus is. There’s a few extremists pushing for silly things, but no, sex is binary. Sex phenotypes aren’t binary, but those aren’t how sex is defined

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    • zalgotext@sh.itjust.works ⁨10⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      What’s in this for you? Why is it so important for you to believe that sex is binary, to try and convince everyone in this thread that sex is binary? How does this narrow-minded, oversimplified view that ignores modern biology serve you? And, maybe most curiously, why do you think “there’s a few extremists pushing for silly things?” What silly things? What kinds of extremists? Let’s go down this fucking rabbit hole together my dude.

      It’s just so funny seeing you acknowledge all over the place that all these other characteristics of sex are not binary, except for gametes (which in reality, also aren’t binary), and that just happens to be the thing you’re pinning your definition of sex to. Like, the pieces are all there and it just looks like you’re refusing to put them all together.

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      • powerstruggle@sh.itjust.works ⁨10⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

        It’s not what I believe. I’m just the messenger, sorry but you are disagreeing with the scientific and academic consensus. I wish I didn’t have to do this and people didn’t post a bunch of nonsense on Lemmy, but here we are.

        People really need to know when their worldview is based on falsehoods, and this is one of those times. As an example, you might have heard of the concept of “5 sexes”, but it turns out that the source of that claim was someone who certainly knows better being “tongue-in-cheek” and “ironic”:

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        She’s also the source of the “intersex is as common as redheads” claim, and that’s also completely wrong and she should know better. That is a silly thing and she’s one of the extremists pushing such silly things.

        I don’t know how to better explain it to you, but yes, sex characteristics are not necessarily binary, but sex is (and yes, gametes are binary). You’re refusing to acknowledge the scientific consensus, and that’s really disappointing.

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• davidagain@lemmy.world ⁨14⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

  You so clever! How many numbers I have write with binary? Is two, no? Why fucking computer use binary if only two numbers?

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  • powerstruggle@sh.itjust.works ⁨13⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    Sarcasm works better if you respond coherently. You doing math with gametes?

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    • davidagain@lemmy.world ⁨12⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      Sir is doing biology without brain. Is much cleverer trick.

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      • powerstruggle@sh.itjust.works ⁨12⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

        You should redirect this energy into learning about how your model of the world is incomplete. You’d benefit much more from that.

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