yesman@lemmy.world 1 week ago
Online debate is a waste of time. You can somewhat short-circuit the bad-faith stuff by arguing values instead of facts or policy.
For example, if you say that the State has no right to remove trans kids from their parents, you’ve made a legal argument that’s vulnerable to all the bad faith and you may even be technically wrong. However if you argue that you trust parents to decide what’s best over the State, there is nothing to argue about. Bonus, you might actually get some real talk out of reactionaries.
Then they say they trust parents to make decisions on vaccines when what they mean is they are anti-vax.
Online debate can help in niche situations. It’s not about convincing the person toy are directly opposing. It’s about getting the counter arguments in a bigger forum so less brainwashed people might be able to avoid getting brainwashed.
This is it, you’re not likely to convince the person you’re arguing with (*), but you can convince lurkers.
*You won’t convince them then, they’re too prideful and defensive to accept alternate ideas during the argument. But you might plant a seed of doubt. Overtime, it might grow and and be accompanied by other doubty plants from seeds planted by others along the way, and who knows? They might have a breakthrough someday, and that argument, perhaps from years ago, was a part of it. I’ve been on both sides of this dynamic myself online and in person.
It’s very helpful in figuring out your own opinions on a topic too. It doesn’t matter much if you convince anyone else.
It’s not about convincing the person toy are directly opposing. It’s about getting the counter arguments in a bigger forum so less brainwashed people might be able to avoid getting brainwashed.
I would describe this as the epitome of “bad faith” commenting.
You are not replying to their actual comment, you are grandstanding to the echo chamber.
Except literally not the echo chamber. The intent is to get the message to those not yet brainwashed so they don’t end up in an echo chamber. You can still directly and genuinely rebut their dumbassery. That’s not “bad faith”. The fact that I know the idiot won’t be swayed by the truth, doesn’t change the fact it’s the truth. Addressing idiotic points explicitly is not bad faith.
The intent is to get the message to those not yet brainwashed
You can still directly and genuinely rebut their dumbassery.
I know the idiot won’t be swayed by the truth
You aren’t talking about “good faith” comments.
You’re imagining someone has already made a bad faith comment and you now have justification to be bad faith in return.
Melvin_Ferd@lemmy.world 1 week ago
So let me ask you something. We all know that a big part of shaping public opinion online is simply just being exposed to an opinion repeated over and over again. Like when someone says something and then has multiple rebuttals that are similar. Or like when we read an opinion over and over again that is not contested. Given what you said, how do we make headway in shaping opinions publicly by disengaging and allowing their opinions to freely go uncontested
WhatsTheHoldup@lemmy.ml 1 week ago
To engage you’d have to go into those public spaces, go back to reddit, YouTube comment sections, Facebook groups, etc.
Because the powerful and richest have more money and power than you do.
If you’re interested in shaping public opinion I think you need to ask yourself why you are on Lemmy instead of somewhere else?
naught101@lemmy.world 6 days ago
(Not OP) Because the “somewhere elses” all have their own fucked up problems, like algorithms that optimise for combativeness, and corporate control of various debates. Lemmy has the potential to provide a viable alternative, and it needs content in order to get big enough to do it. It’s the long game.
WhatsTheHoldup@lemmy.ml 6 days ago
Great answer.
I think keeping this in mind is key. When corporations have full control of these debates we realize maybe we’re wasting our time trying to appeal to their algorithms and should just build a new space without it.
Inherently the new space will be a little smaller and reach less people, but we value that because it gives us a bit more room to speak.
Ledericas@lemm.ee 5 days ago
youutube, they just call everything woke.