how can they see each other dance? I assume it’s because they’re experiencing the dance some other way, but how? (Also it’s hella dark in there, isn’t it?)
By touch. This 50s video shows it well.
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stray@pawb.social 1 week ago“Spiders can detect danger coming their way with an early-warning system called eyes.”
Really fantastic book. I did have some notes though. Firstly, if honeybees have such low dpi vision, how can they see each other dance? I assume it’s because they’re experiencing the dance some other way, but how? (Also it’s hella dark in there, isn’t it?)
He says many times that humanity’s umwelt is dominated by sight, but I very much disagree. To lose my hearing or sense of touch would make me feel quite blind, as I use them to perceive things outside my cone of vision constantly. Being in deep water is unnerving for this reason, because I can’t “see” what’s around me, and I have this whole new area below that I can’t hear either. So I have to wonder whether other people feel that way he does or whether my usage is more unique.
He really blew my mind when describing exafference and reafference because these things are reliant on a sense of self in the first place, which means that even the worm in his example must have some form of ego.
lvxferre@mander.xyz 1 week ago
stray@pawb.social 1 week ago
Oh, I see. I thought they communicated much more complex information than that, but it’s very practical for simple directions with no further details.
lvxferre@mander.xyz 1 week ago
Yup - as far as we know the dance conveys three pieces of info, about a food source:
- direction - by the direction of the waggling
- distance - by the duration of the waggling
- benefit - by how frequently they do it (based on the resources and potential predators)
They also release some pheromones while dancing, but I think that’s just to warn other bees “hey, someone is dancing in the hive”.
Khanzarate@lemmy.world 1 week ago
You show that you are dominated by sight even as you say you aren’t.
Losing your hearing or touch would remove peripheral senses, yes, and certainly that would be unnerving, but think how much worse it would be to lose sight. Hearing wasn’t even a factor for you beyond your peripheral, because what you can see is so much clearer, so much more comprehensive, than what you can hear, that hearing is negligible where you have sight.
Hearing is a backup sense. Something you lean on when you don’t have sight, but its fidelity is poor enough in people that we rely nearly wholly on sight, when we can.
Losing that cone of vision impacts us far more than our hearing, although of course losing either is massively detrimental.
executivechimp@discuss.tchncs.de 1 week ago
I have heard that the incidence of suicide is higher in deaf people then in blind people, which would suggest that, while our senses are sight dominated, losing our hearing has a bigger impact in some way. That said I can’t find a citation for that, so make of it what you will.
Klear@sh.itjust.works 1 week ago
Or maybe the blind people just miss more.
stray@pawb.social 1 week ago
This is the best I could find on the specific topic: pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7888369/
executivechimp@discuss.tchncs.de 1 week ago
Guess I was misinformed. Thanks for doing the legwork.
marron12@lemmy.world 1 week ago
That might vary by person, but for me it’s not. If I had to pick between being able to see and being able to hear, it’d be hearing, hands down. Being able to see is amazing and I’d miss it, but hearing is just a whole other dimension.
Being able to know how someone is feeling, just by hearing their voice. Listening to music and hearing all the shapes, colors, and feelings that come with it. The colors aren’t always ones you can see, like blue or yellow. It’s hard to describe. I’ll close my eyes and just listen at a concert (not the whole time) and same with TV, a lot of times. I usually remember it better that way.
If I have to find something in a backpack, I’ll often do it by feel. I probably look like a raccoon washing its food, but it just works for me. You can tell things apart by feel and sound.
ReluctantMuskrat@lemmy.world 6 days ago
Your description of hearing shapes and colors sounds a lot like someone with synesthesia, a rare condition that’s seems to have no downsides and only benefits.
nickwitha_k@lemmy.sdf.org 6 days ago
A potential downside is sensory overload.
Khanzarate@lemmy.world 1 week ago
That’s neat.
It makes me wonder if your hearing is better than average or if your eyes are worse, making it not so clear-cut.
Do you need glasses, or have you ever had your hearing tested for whatever reason?
marron12@lemmy.world 1 week ago
I don’t need glasses. Haven’t had my hearing tested, but I think it might be better than average. I can hear high frequencies annoyingly well, 20kHz or a little more (checked with a spectrum analyzer). It’s fun to listen to the high harmonics in music. Vacuum cleaners and electric cars are less fun.
I can usually hear my muscles and bones moving. It’s very quiet and low frequency, and the muscles rumble. I can usually tune it out though.
Natanael@infosec.pub 1 week ago
While sound is not nearly as dominant, it’s absolutely not just a backup sense. It’s the fastest perception we have (the best rhythm game players can play blind but not deaf), it covers all directions, and even in our sleep we still respond to loud sounds.
Sound perception is so fast that it’s often what directs you to look in the right direction, even if what you’re reacting to happened in your field of vision.
Funny enough, even our peripheral vision is faster than our central field of vision, to help us avoid predators coming from behind! Our forward directed vision is for tracking and understanding what’s in front of us, sound and peripheral vision is in large part for environmental awareness. They’re co-dependent!
Humans can even learn echolocation!
stray@pawb.social 1 week ago
I can see only in a limited area at any given time, but I can hear in a full sphere around me simultaneously. I don’t think it’s accurate to characterize such a large area as “the periphery”. One sense is imprecise and covers pretty much everywhere while the other is detailed, but very limited. Both senses work in concert to build a full map of the world, and the loss of either is concerning. I’m more comfortable in a blindfold than isolating headphones though, because I can still echolocate while my vision is impaired, but my vision has no way of emulating hearing’s function. I’d have to be constantly looking around all over the place.