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The way mantis shrimp see is nonetheless super cool and interesting. They likely have no conception of 2D color at all, and can only sense the 12 different colors in general. Furthermore, only the midband of their eyes see color, when the eyes are moving and scanning for prey, they don’t see color at all, which probably helps offload mental load for their small brains. Once they do see something, they then stop moving their eyes to determine the color of what they’re looking at.

Also, mantis shrimp have 6 more photoreceptors in addition to the 12 colored ones, to detect polarized light. They likely see them the same way that they see color, so they probably don’t consider them anything different than wavelength which is what we interpret as color.

Ed Yong’s An Immense World has a section on this and I’d highly recommend it. The ways animals sense and perceive the world are often so different for ours and it’s so fascinating.

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kayzeekayzee@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
For anyone wondering why they would need to see polarized light: I looked actually into this a few months ago!

Other animals that are trying to blend in with the environment often use countershading appear less conspicuous. The problem with this is that this method can’t replicate the polarization of the light behind them, making them stand out if you can see that sort of thing. ((Sunlight in the ocean is always polarized based on the direction of the sun (look up fresnel equations for s and p polarized light))). Even transparent creatures will interrupt the polarization in some way, so this is a very useful skill to have.

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- Natanael@infosec.pub ⁨1⁩ ⁨week⁩ ago
  More specifically, polarization changes with the angle of reflection of the surface towards the detector / eye / camera, so every bump in the surface gets a color gradient different from the surroundings when seen by a polarization sensitive eye
  
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stray@pawb.social ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
“Spiders can detect danger coming their way with an early-warning system called eyes.”

Really fantastic book. I did have some notes though. Firstly, if honeybees have such low dpi vision, how can they see each other dance? I assume it’s because they’re experiencing the dance some other way, but how? (Also it’s hella dark in there, isn’t it?)

He says many times that humanity’s umwelt is dominated by sight, but I very much disagree. To lose my hearing or sense of touch would make me feel quite blind, as I use them to perceive things outside my cone of vision constantly. Being in deep water is unnerving for this reason, because I can’t “see” what’s around me, and I have this whole new area below that I can’t hear either. So I have to wonder whether other people feel that way he does or whether my usage is more unique.

He really blew my mind when describing exafference and reafference because these things are reliant on a sense of self in the first place, which means that even the worm in his example must have some form of ego.

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- Khanzarate@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  You show that you are dominated by sight even as you say you aren’t.
  
  Losing your hearing or touch would remove peripheral senses, yes, and certainly that would be unnerving, but think how much worse it would be to lose sight. Hearing wasn’t even a factor for you beyond your peripheral, because what you can see is so much clearer, so much more comprehensive, than what you can hear, that hearing is negligible where you have sight.
  
  Hearing is a backup sense. Something you lean on when you don’t have sight, but its fidelity is poor enough in people that we rely nearly wholly on sight, when we can.
  
  Losing that cone of vision impacts us far more than our hearing, although of course losing either is massively detrimental.
  
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  - executivechimp@discuss.tchncs.de ⁨1⁩ ⁨week⁩ ago
    I have heard that the incidence of suicide is higher in deaf people then in blind people, which would suggest that, while our senses are sight dominated, losing our hearing has a bigger impact in some way. That said I can’t find a citation for that, so make of it what you will.
    
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    Klear@sh.itjust.works ⁨1⁩ ⁨week⁩ ago
    Or maybe the blind people just miss more.
    
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    stray@pawb.social ⁨1⁩ ⁨week⁩ ago
    This is the best I could find on the specific topic: pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7888369/
    
    People with visual or hearing sensory impairments had twice the odds of past-year suicidal ideation (OR 2.06; 95% CI 1.17 to 2.73; p<0.001), and over three times the odds of reporting past-year suicide attempt (OR 3.12; 95% CI 1.57 to 6.20; p=0.001) compared with people without these impairments. Similar results were found for hearing and visual impairments separately and co-occurring.
    
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  - marron12@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨week⁩ ago
    
    Hearing is a backup sense.
    
    That might vary by person, but for me it’s not. If I had to pick between being able to see and being able to hear, it’d be hearing, hands down. Being able to see is amazing and I’d miss it, but hearing is just a whole other dimension.
    
    Being able to know how someone is feeling, just by hearing their voice. Listening to music and hearing all the shapes, colors, and feelings that come with it. The colors aren’t always ones you can see, like blue or yellow. It’s hard to describe. I’ll close my eyes and just listen at a concert (not the whole time) and same with TV, a lot of times. I usually remember it better that way.
    
    If I have to find something in a backpack, I’ll often do it by feel. I probably look like a raccoon washing its food, but it just works for me. You can tell things apart by feel and sound.
    
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    ReluctantMuskrat@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨week⁩ ago
    Your description of hearing shapes and colors sounds a lot like someone with synesthesia, a rare condition that’s seems to have no downsides and only benefits.
    
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    Khanzarate@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨week⁩ ago
    That’s neat.
    
    It makes me wonder if your hearing is better than average or if your eyes are worse, making it not so clear-cut.
    
    Do you need glasses, or have you ever had your hearing tested for whatever reason?
    
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  - Natanael@infosec.pub ⁨1⁩ ⁨week⁩ ago
    While sound is not nearly as dominant, it’s absolutely not just a backup sense. It’s the fastest perception we have (the best rhythm game players can play blind but not deaf), it covers all directions, and even in our sleep we still respond to loud sounds.
    
    Sound perception is so fast that it’s often what directs you to look in the right direction, even if what you’re reacting to happened in your field of vision.
    
    Funny enough, even our peripheral vision is faster than our central field of vision, to help us avoid predators coming from behind! Our forward directed vision is for tracking and understanding what’s in front of us, sound and peripheral vision is in large part for environmental awareness. They’re co-dependent!
    
    Humans can even learn echolocation!
    
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  - stray@pawb.social ⁨1⁩ ⁨week⁩ ago
    I can see only in a limited area at any given time, but I can hear in a full sphere around me simultaneously. I don’t think it’s accurate to characterize such a large area as “the periphery”. One sense is imprecise and covers pretty much everywhere while the other is detailed, but very limited. Both senses work in concert to build a full map of the world, and the loss of either is concerning. I’m more comfortable in a blindfold than isolating headphones though, because I can still echolocate while my vision is impaired, but my vision has no way of emulating hearing’s function. I’d have to be constantly looking around all over the place.
    
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- lvxferre@mander.xyz ⁨1⁩ ⁨week⁩ ago
  
  how can they see each other dance? I assume it’s because they’re experiencing the dance some other way, but how? (Also it’s hella dark in there, isn’t it?)
  
  By touch. This 50s video shows it well.
  
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  - stray@pawb.social ⁨1⁩ ⁨week⁩ ago
    Oh, I see. I thought they communicated much more complex information than that, but it’s very practical for simple directions with no further details.
    
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    lvxferre@mander.xyz ⁨1⁩ ⁨week⁩ ago
    Yup - as far as we know the dance conveys three pieces of info, about a food source:
    
    direction - by the direction of the waggling
    
    distance - by the duration of the waggling
    
    benefit - by how frequently they do it (based on the resources and potential predators)
    
    They also release some pheromones while dancing, but I think that’s just to warn other bees “hey, someone is dancing in the hive”.
    
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