Comment on It really is like this
Sl00k@programming.dev 1 day ago
- their government being fucked up (especially their censorship)
I would love to discuss this with anyone that’s willing. If their government is as awful and fucked up as everyone says why does the average Chinese citizen generally have a better life than the average American in their respective societal totem pole (in cities specifically) ?
They have far more purchasing power for food, rent. Their healthcare is affordable. While censorship is a thing towards certain topics, there certainly isn’t a lack of discussion. They have far better public transit systems, far more parks, and public utilities, absolute ownership (no property tax).
To me it seems we’re continuously demonizing the lives of those we don’t understand who are actually far better off than most of us in the states.
The entire country tried to revolt in 1984 and millions of citizens were killed by their own military. People who speak out lose access to most services and can’t even sign up for online platforms.
Right now China is experiencing a massive homelessness crisis because their assigned homes aren’t in the places they live and work.
The entire country tried to revolt in 1984 and millions of citizens were killed by their own military
Literally nobody claims that millions died, that’s flat earth levels of alternate reality.
The entire country tried to revolt in 1984 and millions of citizens were killed by their own military.
What?
revolt in 1984
Its 1989 June 4 btw, not 1984. While the 1989 massacre did happen, we don’t know if there’s millions. (due to censorship, we will never really know the true numbers) And its not a revolt, it was a peaceful protest by college students, and mostly in Beijing. They were attempting to talk to the leaders and talk reform, not revolt. They were even waving Chinese flags.
But the leadership got paranoid AF so they sent the tanks.
Right now China is experiencing a massive homelessness crisis because their assigned homes aren’t in the places they live and work.
Yea that’s the Hukou (户口) problem. Rural people want to work in cities, but they are essentially treated as illegal immigrants, even if this is literally their country. 🤦♂️
B-but rent prices in LA!
What in the massive misinformation clusterfuck is happening in your brain?
What happened in 1984?
Do people still use Jim Crowe laws to talk about the daily life of US citizens? These are 40-60 year old discussion that do not adequately describe what life is like to the average citizen today.
Yeah they have their own homeless issues, but imo having a homeless population who has a job and chooses not to return home vs one that has nothing is two very different situations and almost incomparable problems.
People do still talk about Jim Crowe laws, yes, and also the same singular party rules China today and they still regularly suppress protests with military especially in regions they more recently expressed complete authority over such as Taiwan, Hong Kong, and Tibet.
Why does every discussion around China devolve into this as if the US doesn’t also do this?
Instead let’s discuss how average Chinese citizen in Shanghai is doing compared to the average citizen in San Francisco and have a real discussion between the two countries.
more recently expressed complete authority over such as Taiwan
What complete authority does the PRC have over Taiwan? Their position now is the same as its been for seventy years - they consider it part of their country but exercise no actual control over it.
What the fuck are you talking about
China
Quite frankly, I think you’re failing to see that a major part of American culture, a literal founding principle, is “live free or die”. Americans are obviously not going to take that censorship as just a small downside.
absolute ownership (no property tax).
This is also just a lie. They don’t own land.
Pointing out Americans system of live free or dying to avert censorship while also repeating US propaganda about China is hilariously ironic
What happens to the land/house you own if you don’t pay property tax in the US? Chinas 70 year lease is effectively a more solidified ownership than the US.
Chinas 70 year lease is effectively a more solidified ownership than the US.
That’s pure philosophy. I would argue that complete legal ownership is more ownership…
repeating US propaganda about China is hilariously ironic
None of what I said was propaganda lmfao. Lease is just pure facts, and censorship is something that you’d have to be blind to think isn’t real.
Whatabout whatabout whatabout
We, in fact, do own land. We just have an explicit contract with our government vs the implicit one people in the US have. Look into imminent domain seizures in the US.
…you know that a lease isn’t ownership right?
Look into imminent domain seizures in the US.
Yes, they can take land you own… That doesn’t mean you don’t own it lol. Just because you can lose something doesn’t mean you don’t own it
…the ‘lease’ is that you don’t own it independent of the government, as in despite owning the land you’re not your own country. You’ll find this in every country, except in China it’s spelled out. It has an expiration since, you know, China tends to reform itself over time. None have expired, and right now under current law none of them can expire, they are automatically renewed to the owner at the time of expiry, with the assumption the owner isn’t going to commit treason.
Like the ‘social credit score’ nonsense you people made up, it’s a gross misinterpretation of reality that you believe because you fundamentally believe Chinese people are different than you.
Whatavout whatabout whatabout
Using comparisons to make a point is not whataboubtism, Mr. Shapiro.
I would love to discuss this with anyone that’s willing. If their government is as awful and fucked up as everyone says why does the average Chinese citizen generally have a better life than the average American in their respective societal totem pole (in cities specifically) ?
Because the social contract of 21st centuries authoritarian societies is “We give you prosperity, you engage with politics only through approved channels.” Punishment for dissent depends on how insecure the state feels right now.
On the plus side, the government cares about your prosperity. As long as it lasts, elites can divide power among themselves however they like.
On the minus – society doesn’t control its government (power transition happens by committee, not elections) and it can’t force any kind of change when elites are against it. Modern states have so much repression power, they can shut down any activism when they don’t mind bloodstains.
source: Im russian 🤷♀️
I would love to discuss this with anyone that’s willing. If their government is as awful and fucked up as everyone says why does the average Chinese citizen generally have a better life than the average American in their respective societal totem pole (in cities specifically) ?
Many Chinese people want to go to western countries. Nowadays there might be less people wanting to emmigrate, but when I left, going to a western country was a common sentinment. Some want to study in a western University and bring back the knowledge home, others want to emmigrate permanently. My Aunts and Uncles in China are still on a waitlist trying to come. Now with trump, I’m not sure they’ll ever get a visa, or if the US would deteriorate and get worse than China with this fascism trajectory that the US is having. China is getting better as time goes on, but still not good enough that people are still trying to see better life abroad.
TLDR is that: China isn’t inherently worse, Western countries aren’t inherently better. It’s all a roll of dice. But in the US (and especially other western places like the EU) that “roll of dice” is often better than the “roll of dice” in China. China has way too many people and there is more competition for jobs. Not to mention, the GaoKao (高考) is like 10 times harder than the US SAT/ACT.
China has way too many people and there is more competition for jobs.
Is this only for well paying jobs like software engineering or is this also true for shittier service/factory style jobs?
Shitty jobs are easier to get, but like… who want’s to work a China-equivalent of a US McDonalds where the pay is horrible and you get treated like shit.
But still, even the shittier jobs are still harder to get than the US
My mom had a sales job where most of the pay actually came from commissions, but otherwise, the actual pay is not good. (Imagine the US waiter, they mostly rely on tips, but replace waiter with sales, and tips with commission, same thing) My dad had difficulty finding jobs and was constantly in and out of jobs. The last I remembered, he had some taxi job for like about a month or so then lost the job.
Also, the pay was monthly, no weekly or biweekly like most western countries. You could work for a month then the company goes bankrupt and you don’t get paid. At least with the weekly, its only one week of pay lost.
Oh also, we had a rural Hukou, we didn’t have Hukou in the city (GuangZhou). So probably zero access to social services (I assume). As far as I know, every doctor visit would be out of pocket and prepaid. This was around 2010, I hope things are better now.
The desire for a better future is why my family and I left (well I didn’t get to chose either way, I was a kid). Things in the US is better, like we ain’t rich, inflation still affects us, but its less shitty than it was in China. Other people’s experience may vary.
The only bad thing about the us is the occasional racism, but other than that, most things are better than China.
frank@sopuli.xyz 1 day ago
I lived and worked outside Shanghai for a bit, but it was a while ago and probably has changed a good bit. What makes you think their lives are far better off than those in the states?
Not necessarily disagreeing, but it absolutely was not the case 15 years ago. American life is on a downhill though, zero argument there.
Sl00k@programming.dev 1 day ago
Right now I look at my life in the late 20s in the states and even despite having a well paying tech job, I will have to sacrifice everything in my life in order to have a family or even own a house and those two are exclusive of each other. Although not in deep debt, I’ve definitely had to pay my fair share towards medical and student debt.
I’m watching critical infrastructure projects that could impact so many people take 30 years to build.
The amount of homeless we see on the streets is our own governmental failure and the increased crime associated with it. Seeing what I see in US streets really can wear an empathetic person down, it’s a cruel world here.
Our diet and price to eat healthy in the US is continuously worsening (yes this is a choice to an extent but also a cultural problem that grows over time)
And even though it’s absolutely recency bias, the deportation of Latinos does not strike confidence in me given my heritage.
I do think China has changed a lot in the last 15-30 years, and don’t get me wrong I don’t think it’s a perfect life, I understand there’s an infinite amount of competition for well paying jobs, and housing prices are extremely high (albeit not as high relative to ours). But when you show me how China has effectively succeeded at each of these topics compared to our own governmental failures that I experience on the daily, it makes me question my own life here and why people immediately criticize China without nuance.
IDKWhatUsernametoPutHereLolol@lemmy.dbzer0.com 23 hours ago
Thats probably fueled by western individualism. In China, families tend to stay together, so if a Chinese person ever faced homelessness, they could always move back to live with parents, who all have a house that’s passed down from their ancestors. And in China there isn’t as much of a “Shame Culture” as with the US. Its considered acceptable to live with parents as long as they are trying their best in life.
frank@sopuli.xyz 16 hours ago
I do feel for you, I know life in the US has gotten much worse recently and I feel that’s accelerating.
I’m not so sure life in China is better per se, but it is different.
I will probably blanket statement this and say life in the EU seems a lot better than in the US now, though with plenty of problems depending on where you go. I say this as someone who left the US for the EU.