People have said that plenty on .ml. The only response I saw was people saying that was a bad move from Stalin and he should not have done that.
Comment on [deleted]
dragonfucker@lemmy.nz 3 days agoStalin criminalised homosexuality with a punishment of five years prison labour. Go ahead and repeat that fact on Hexbear, and see how many “radical leftists” are willing to make excuses for a homophobe
IndustryStandard@lemmy.world 3 days ago
naught101@lemmy.world 3 days ago
Isn’t this just an argument that left-right is a bad categorisation?
Tankies are authoritarian socialists. The american right are authoritarian and socially conservative individualists. Anarchists are libertarian socialists. American libertarians are also individualists.
There are lots of other dimensions too, but the left-right designation has been kind of useless at least since communists started fucking over anarchists in various parts of Eurasia in the first half of last century…
finitebanjo@lemmy.world 3 days ago
No, it’s an argument that not everybody who claims to be left is actually progressive. Not everybody who promotes ownership of means of production by the people actually cares about human rights.
Tankies aren’t left.
volodya_ilich@lemm.ee 3 days ago
Criminalising homosexuality was a mistake, and a consequence of a process of rolling back on some of the cultural progress achieved during the 1920s in the USSR due to fear of a situation like the pushback against early collectivisation efforts after the end of the New Economic Policy era. Nobody on hexbear will excuse this. What they will tell you is the massive boost in literacy during Stalin’s rule, especially among women; the guarantee of employment by the state, the immense equalisation of wages, the total elimination of private property through the collectivisation of agriculture and industry, the guarantee of free healthcare and education de jura and de facto, the world-unprecedented industrial growth and improvement of the economic situation of citizens of the Soviet Union, the massive push towards unionisation of workers and participation in policy through party membership, and the most intense struggle against fascism that coated 27 million lives.
Now, you named one right wing policy, I named a list of communist policy, please explain me how the overall is “right wing”
Valmond@lemmy.world 3 days ago
You mean the war with Hitler? That the URSS started with Hitler?
volodya_ilich@lemm.ee 3 days ago
No, because that’s revisionist propaganda. The USSR had proposed mutual-defense agreements with Poland, France and England, which all of them rejected. The USSR offered to enter a war against nazism as a response to the Munich agreements and the annexation of Czechoslovakia by nazis and Poland, but France and England (and obviously Poland) didn’t want that. The Soviets went as far as to offer sending ONE MILLION soldiers to France, together with artillery, aviation and tanks, on exchange for a mutual-defense agreement with France and England. As was later discovered through released embassy wires, the French and English ambassadors were instructed not to make a peace agreement with the Soviets under any condition, but to pretend to be interested and to prolong the negotiations for as long as possible… presumably expecting Nazis to invade the Soviet Union, given that communists were their self-declared enemy and they held racial motivations to eliminate “the Slavic Untermenschen”. It was convenient, letting the Nazis deal with the communists (since England and France had failed to eliminate Bolshevism during their invasion of Russia in the Russian Civil War), two birds with one stone.
The Soviet Union, which had only begun industrializing in 1928 with its first 5-year plan, compared to the century-long history of industrialization of Germany, simply didn’t have the material means to single-handedly fight nazism in 1939. This is further proven by the fact that, after the invasion of the USSR by the Nazis, 27 million Soviet lives were lost in the struggle against fascism. They DESPERATELY needed every single year they could buy, and they DESPERATELY needed to avoid facing the Nazis in a one-on-one struggle. Without the lend-lease program, and without the western front, who’s to say if the Soviet Union would have simply succumbed to Nazi Germany, and the horrifying additional extent of genocide that Nazis would have been able to perpetrate.
In case you don’t believe me personally, I’ll leave you another comment below this one with quotes of western politicians and diplomats of the period, showing the revisionism that the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact has been subjected to.
volodya_ilich@lemm.ee 3 days ago
“ It is clear that Stalin had two courses open to him. He could seek a general coalition against Hitler, or he could come to an understanding with Hitler at the expense of the Western democracies. Stalin’s policy was guided by a profound conviction of the ultimate hostility of Nazi Germany, as well as by the hope that if the capitalist Powers became locked in mortal conflict, the Soviet Union might remain aloof, gaining strength while they tore one another to pieces. Certainly the principle of self-preservation lay at the heart of Moscow’s calculations ” Winston Churchill, The Gathering Storm, Chapter 20, The Soviet Enigma pub 1948.
“ In those days the Soviet Government had grave reason to fear that they would be left one-on-one to face the Nazi fury. Stalin took measures which no free democracy could regard otherwise than with distaste. Yet I never doubted myself that his cardinal aim had been to hold the German armies off from Russia for as long as might be ” (Paraphrased from Churchill’s December 1944 remarks in the House of Commons.)
“ It would be unwise to assume Stalin approves of Hitler’s aggression. Probably the Soviet Government has merely sought a delaying tactic, not wanting to be the next victim. They will have a rude awakening, but they think, at least for now, they can keep the wolf from the door ” Franklin D. Roosevelt (President of the United States, 1933–1945), from Harold L. Ickes’s diary entries, early September 1939. Ickes’s diaries are published as The Secret Diary of Harold Ickes.
“ One must suppose that the Soviet Government, seeing no immediate prospect of real support from outside, decided to make its own arrangements for self‑defence, however unpalatable such an agreement might appear. We in this House cannot be astonished that a government acting solely on grounds of power politics should take that course ” Neville Chamberlain, House of Commons Statement, August 24, 1939 (one day after pact’s signing)
“ We could not doubt that the Soviet Government, disillusioned by the hesitant negotiations with Britain and France, feared a lone struggle against Hitler’s mighty war machine. It seemed they had concluded, in the interests of survival, that an accord with Germany would at least postpone their day of reckoning ” Cordell Hull (U.S. Secretary of State), The Memoirs of Cordell Hull (Published 1948)
“ *It must be said that the Soviet Government, having little confidence in swift military aid from the Western Powers, chose to protect its borders, however odious such a pact might seem. One perceives in their choice the determination to secure time—time they evidently believed we were not prepared to give them.” Édouard Daladier (French Prime Minister), Address to the French Chamber of Deputies, Late August 1939
“ It seemed to me that the Soviet leaders believed conflict with Nazi Germany was inescapable. But, lacking clear assurances of military partnership from England and France, they resolved that a ‘breathing spell’ was urgently needed. In that sense, the pact with Germany was a temporary expedient to keep the wolf from the door ” Joseph E. Davies (U.S. Ambassador to the USSR, 1937–1938), Mission to Moscow (1941)
“ British officials, for all their outrage, concede that Stalin, with no firm pledge of Allied assistance, and regarding Poland as a foregone victim, decided that if the Red Army must eventually face Hitler, it should not be without first gaining some strategic space—and time ” Joseph P. Kennedy (U.S. Ambassador to the UK, 1938–1940),Private Correspondence, September 1939
volodya_ilich@lemm.ee 3 days ago
“ It is clear that Stalin had two courses open to him. He could seek a general coalition against Hitler, or he could come to an understanding with Hitler at the expense of the Western democracies. Stalin’s policy was guided by a profound conviction of the ultimate hostility of Nazi Germany, as well as by the hope that if the capitalist Powers became locked in mortal conflict, the Soviet Union might remain aloof, gaining strength while they tore one another to pieces. Certainly the principle of self-preservation lay at the heart of Moscow’s calculations ” Winston Churchill, The Gathering Storm, Chapter 20, The Soviet Enigma pub 1948.
“ In those days the Soviet Government had grave reason to fear that they would be left one-on-one to face the Nazi fury. Stalin took measures which no free democracy could regard otherwise than with distaste. Yet I never doubted myself that his cardinal aim had been to hold the German armies off from Russia for as long as might be ” (Paraphrased from Churchill’s December 1944 remarks in the House of Commons.)
“ It would be unwise to assume Stalin approves of Hitler’s aggression. Probably the Soviet Government has merely sought a delaying tactic, not wanting to be the next victim. They will have a rude awakening, but they think, at least for now, they can keep the wolf from the door ” Franklin D. Roosevelt (President of the United States, 1933–1945), from Harold L. Ickes’s diary entries, early September 1939. Ickes’s diaries are published as The Secret Diary of Harold Ickes.
“ One must suppose that the Soviet Government, seeing no immediate prospect of real support from outside, decided to make its own arrangements for self‑defence, however unpalatable such an agreement might appear. We in this House cannot be astonished that a government acting solely on grounds of power politics should take that course ” Neville Chamberlain, House of Commons Statement, August 24, 1939 (one day after pact’s signing)
“ We could not doubt that the Soviet Government, disillusioned by the hesitant negotiations with Britain and France, feared a lone struggle against Hitler’s mighty war machine. It seemed they had concluded, in the interests of survival, that an accord with Germany would at least postpone their day of reckoning ” Cordell Hull (U.S. Secretary of State), The Memoirs of Cordell Hull (Published 1948)
“ *It must be said that the Soviet Government, having little confidence in swift military aid from the Western Powers, chose to protect its borders, however odious such a pact might seem. One perceives in their choice the determination to secure time—time they evidently believed we were not prepared to give them.” Édouard Daladier (French Prime Minister), Address to the French Chamber of Deputies, Late August 1939
“ It seemed to me that the Soviet leaders believed conflict with Nazi Germany was inescapable. But, lacking clear assurances of military partnership from England and France, they resolved that a ‘breathing spell’ was urgently needed. In that sense, the pact with Germany was a temporary expedient to keep the wolf from the door ” Joseph E. Davies (U.S. Ambassador to the USSR, 1937–1938), Mission to Moscow (1941)
“ British officials, for all their outrage, concede that Stalin, with no firm pledge of Allied assistance, and regarding Poland as a foregone victim, decided that if the Red Army must eventually face Hitler, it should not be without first gaining some strategic space—and time ” Joseph P. Kennedy (U.S. Ambassador to the UK, 1938–1940),Private Correspondence, September 1939
Hopefully, you won’t accuse such sources, i.e. western diplomats and politicians who actually experienced WW2, of being tankies
naught101@lemmy.world 3 days ago
Comment has “no bad vibes” vibes
volodya_ilich@lemm.ee 3 days ago
Literally the first phrase is a condemnation of the criminalisation of homosexuality
finitebanjo@lemmy.world 3 days ago
I wonder if that literacy rate ratio change was the result of the mass exodus and death as poor people starved in the late 20s through 30s as a direct result of the 1920s USSR economic changes which failed to provide means of centralized agriculture management. I don’t actually know for certain, but maybe.
One thing I will give them is that they were allowed to work as far back as in the early revolution.
Right Wing is usually defined as conservative and regressive, which definitely applies to CCP and Russia erosion of democracy and rolling back of human rights, and also definitely aligns with the Maga low taxation, less government services, deconstruction of NATO, etc. Tankies supported Trump, btw, his face was being promoted all over Hexbear.
volodya_ilich@lemm.ee 2 days ago
I wonder if that literacy rate ratio change was the result of the mass exodus and death
You wonder that because you’re uneducated on the topic. There were immense efforts in the Soviet society towards education and literacy. By the 70s, there were more female engineers inside the USSR than in the rest of the world (source: Albert Szymanski’s “Human Rights in the Soviet Union”). The education policy and budget spared no expense to allow everyone to educate themselves, education was free to the highest level, and workers were encouraged to participate in lessons that in many cases the unions themselves organised at the workplace, or special lectures at late evenings for workers at universities.
Russia erosion of democracy and rolling back of human rights
Again proving that you’re talking out of your ass. Before the Soviet Union was Tsarist Russia. I guess that’s your beacon of human rights and democracy?
Tankies supported Trump, btw, his face was being promoted all over Hexbear
Lmao, I’m a Hexbear user and that’s 100% not the case. Blaming Biden for the genocide under his administration isn’t the same as promoting Trump, wish you were capable of understanding that
Allero@lemmy.today 3 days ago
Stalin is a conflicting historical figure, who is neither a monster nor a savior, and so the way you describe him would differ depending on the angle of the conversation.
If the talking point is the rights of the LGBT+ people (or, really, people’s rights overall sometimes), there’s no excuse for him there, and I’m pretty sure Hexbear is not quite the place for a homophobic rhetoric.
But they may point out in other terms that under Stalin’s rule the economy got insanely boosted, the WW2 was won, and many megaprojects used to this day were constructed.
vga@sopuli.xyz 3 days ago
His one and only remeeding deed was that he finally, eventually, only after being stabbed in the back, fought against Hitler by throwing millions of russians at them and thanks to US support managed barely to win.
In every other way he was a total monster.
cook_pass_babtridge@sh.itjust.works 3 days ago
You could say the same things about Churchill who certainly wasn’t left wing.
volodya_ilich@lemm.ee 3 days ago
You can’t say the same things about Churchill, there was no massive equalisation of wages in England during his rule, nor a planned economy guaranteeing a job to anyone who wanted a job, nor a collectivisation of agriculture and of the means of production, nor a state-backing of unions, nor an immense push towards literacy and women’s rights and education…
Valmond@lemmy.world 3 days ago
Equalisation of wages in the USSR: Lets lower all wages to the lowest of them all and introduce corruption as an obligation to survive!
Handy tool against dissidents too, corruption.
chandlerbung@lemmy.cafe 3 days ago
No he’s a monster. You don’t stop being a monster because you also did good alongside the evil.
Valmond@lemmy.world 3 days ago
Being lucky oil prices went up (same for Putin) and people thinking it’s your magic leadership lol.
Allero@lemmy.today 3 days ago
The oil prices boomed around WW2, while the highest wave of economic growth in the Soviet Union was in the 30’s.
It is Khrushchev and following leaders that benefitted from oil
j_overgrens@feddit.nl 3 days ago
Replace Stalin with Hitler and you understand how insane you sound. (Oh and ditch the part about winning ww2)
Allero@lemmy.today 3 days ago
Hitler took an already established economy and rearranged it towards national capital while killing Jews en masse and initiating a World War.
Not quite comparable.
j_overgrens@feddit.nl 3 days ago
Stalin took an already establishing economy and rearranged it towards national capital while killing Jews en masse and allied with Nazi’s.
Miaou@jlai.lu 3 days ago
And those two things you mentioned have nothing to do with his political alignment