Okay, post some mainstream feminist discourse that says otherwise. Highly influential feminist like Dworkin go as far as saying that any sexual intercourse with men is sexual assault.
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BoneALisa@lemm.ee 3 weeks agoThats just not true my dude, there is nothing about feminist thought that says that male pleasure is abhorrent. To think so shows a lack of understanding of feminism…
SeattleRain@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
Bertuccio@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
“She is often said to argue that “all heterosexual sex is rape”, based on the line from the book that says, “Violation is a synonym for intercourse.” However, Dworkin has denied this interpretation, stating, “What I think is that sex must not put women in a subordinate position. It must be reciprocal and not an act of aggression from a man looking only to satisfy himself. That’s my point.”[1]”
Second paragraph on wikipedia…
SeattleRain@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
But she posits that patriarchy is all encompassing and subordinates all women. Even the feminist that wrote the forward said that’s what she meant.
Numerous feminists have said they interpreted that way. It’s hard to take her denial seriously given the context of her book and the rest of her writings.
Bertuccio@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
“She didn’t actually say what she said in the book. Or what she said in multiple interviews. She really said whatever dumb strawman I want to make up.”
sushibowl@feddit.nl 3 weeks ago
First, Dworkin has never said that and did not think that.
Second, she died almost twenty years ago my dude. Intercourse was published in '87 during the second wave of feminism. Why are you misquoting her as an example of current mainstream discourse? And even if we’re going to be talking about feminist views of the 80’s, you’re conveniently ignoring sex-positive feminism. The sex wars were like, the defining feminist debate of that era.
SeattleRain@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
She did in fact say that and your link doesn’t refute that. And sex positive feminism is not sex positive for men. As I’ve said many times before I’m talking about mainstream feminist discourse. Feminist always use this tactic of digging up some progressive strain of feminism knowing full well it’s not influential.
Dworkin may have died awhile ago but her work is still regularly cites and studies by mainstream feminism and her influence can be seen in movies like the Barbie movie.
sushibowl@feddit.nl 3 weeks ago
She did in fact say that and your link doesn’t refute that.
Come now. She very clearly denies saying it in the interview I linked to:
Several reviewers accused you of saying that all intercourse was rape. I haven’t found a hint of that anywhere in the book. Is that what you are saying?
Andrea Dworkin: No, I wasn’t saying that and I didn’t say that, then or ever.
If you want to claim she’s lying about her own statements, find me a direct quote of her saying it.
aesthelete@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
Andrea Dworkin: No, I wasn’t saying that and I didn’t say that, then or ever. There is a long section in Right-Wing Women on intercourse in marriage. My point was that as long as the law allows statutory exemption for a husband from rape charges, no married woman has legal protection from rape. I also argued, based on a reading of our laws, that marriage mandated intercourse—it was compulsory, part of the marriage contract. Under the circumstances, I said, it was impossible to view sexual intercourse in marriage as the free act of a free woman. I said that when we look at sexual liberation and the law, we need to look not only at which sexual acts are forbidden, but which are compelled.
BoneALisa@lemm.ee 3 weeks ago
This is exactly my point. This is a harsh misunderstanding at what she was getting at…
She is saying that the reality of sex for the vast majority of history has been about men dominating women, not interested in satisfying the women involved, but someone already covered that point.
MrPoopbutt@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
Feminism suffers from being very broad. There are a lot of conflict viewpoints living under the umbrella of feminism and people saying that their interpretation is the correct one. And there ate a bunch of waves of feminism too, each one a bit different.
So there are absolutely feminists who are anti male. They may be a loud fringe minority, but they’re there.
aesthelete@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
Bah dum tiss
SeattleRain@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
But I’m talking about mainstream feminism in the public discourse right now. Think the “Barbie” movie. Male sexuality is very clearly depicted a inherently dangerous which is core mainstream feminist belief.
Jakeroxs@sh.itjust.works 3 weeks ago
Did you actually watch the movie or just regurgitating a viewpoint someone else claimed the movie was about.
Blumpkinhead@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
I haven’t seen the movie. How does it depict make sexuality as inherently dangerous?
SeattleRain@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
Not to mention Ken’s attraction to Barbie nearly destroys Barbie land and is revealed to based on selfish social climbing and his broken psychology.
SeattleRain@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
Barbie is immediately sexually harassed several times upon first interacting with human men.
Also see “Wonder Woman '84” for more examples which was directed by a feminists with explicitly feminists ideology.
BoneALisa@lemm.ee 3 weeks ago
I won’t disagree that there are definitely anti-men feminists, but there have also been anti-bi feminists, and currently there are anti-trans feminists. But none of them are worth discussing when talking about feminism as a whole because they really don’t apply. Those are ideologies that should be tackled independently, and should not be considered representative of the movement in general.