Comment on Borders
the_abecedarian@piefed.social 4 weeks ago
those aren’t borders, those are territories arrived at by wolves interacting with each other and deciding to keep the peace. has nothing to do with formal borders imposed on us by states
Track_Shovel@slrpnk.net 4 weeks ago
PM_ME_VINTAGE_30S@anarchist.nexus 4 weeks ago
TheTechnician27@lemmy.world 4 weeks ago
has nothing to do with formal borders imposed on us by states
You mean the entities who interact with each other and decide to keep the peace as an abstract representation of those residing within them?
the_abecedarian@piefed.social 4 weeks ago
so the borders of the US were agreed upon by entities who decided to keep the peace, not established by war and genocide? the borders of several African states were not set by colonial violence? the border between Russia and Ukraine is being “renegotiated” and not fought over? Israel “renegotiating” with Lebanon?
there’s a big difference between populations who come to agreements with each other and states who do things for power.
TheTechnician27@lemmy.world 4 weeks ago
Why are you acting like I said the word “negotiate”? I said “arrived at”; the means – friendly cooperation, terrain, a myriad individualist agreements, brutal violence and intimidation – are irrelevant to the overall point that the wolves have very obviously formed borders. Israel and Russia are no longer keeping the peace, hence they’re actively dissolving the borders.
I’ll be one of the first people who’ll tell you that animals experience real emotions and have real, deep, complex bonds with their fellow animal. I’m sure these wolves’ borders developed along natural formations, inherent population limits, intimidation, etc., and you’d have to be delusional to think the wolves’ borders are totally divorced from the means by which states form borders.
the_abecedarian@piefed.social 4 weeks ago
you said “decide to keep the peace” which I provided counterexamples against. I shorthanded that as “negotiate” but you can just sub in your exact language and the point stands.
i don’t deny the social abilities of wolves. i don’t even claim that there are zero similarities between social boundaries and formal borders. what im doing is pointing out that borders formed by the institution of the state are fundamentally different from social boundaries adopted by people, wolves, or any being capable of negotiating them.
my motivation here is to undermine the idea that national borders are “natural”, which tends to legitimate them in many people’s minds, like the meme in this post tries to do. I want to undermine that because i believe it isn’t true and because there are fundamentally better ways to organize society.
FinjaminPoach@lemmy.world 4 weeks ago
LOL
LibertyLizard@slrpnk.net 4 weeks ago
Yeah it’s the abstract representation that’s the problem. I didn’t consent to this BS.
Blue_Morpho@lemmy.world 4 weeks ago
While it is nice in theory to eliminate all national borders, it’s not one wolf but a wolf pack. The pack is deciding democratically to respect the border of another pack.
Saying borders are “imposed by the state” is like a cub who ignores the pack, wanders into America and gets torn apart by nasty Americans.
the_abecedarian@piefed.social 4 weeks ago
the state is an organization that includes a tiny minority of people who get to command and control the greater population. you can argue that its power is legitimate because of elections if you want, but it is not the same as the people. meanwhile, the wolves don’t experience that kind of government.
krisevol@lemmus.org 4 weeks ago
You just described a border.
Takapapatapaka@tarte.nuage-libre.fr 4 weeks ago
Hint : the important part here is deciding, instead of imposed. If i go camping in a field, there is no border between me and my neighbor, but we will tend to hang around our own tents more. This is built on nothing more than will, as opposed to borders.