Comment on [deleted]

• Snorf@reddthat.com ⁨8⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  But what does an end to all of this actually look like? I still remember when Rabin and Arrafat were awarded Nobel peace prizes because they thought Bill Clinton solved peace in the Middle East.

  Can there be peace? Or just this eternal back and forth bullshit?

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  • Magnetar@feddit.de ⁨8⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    The whole thing is a horrible mix of religious, historical, political and economical interlocking conflicts. Can there be peace? I have no idea.

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    • regnskog@lemmy.world ⁨8⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      Oh but we can definitely sketch something, for sure.

      • There has to be some degree of truth and reconciliation, and that will not look like “and all the bad people get punished forever”. There’s plenty of sides and plenty of atrocities and people have to somehow get over them. That’s fucking hard and will take generations, but it’s been done before and it can be done again.
      • Israel will, technically, have to give up the most. They’re occupying territory in explicit violation of international law, for starters, but they also have a lot more resources generally. Not to mention their export industry in arms, including anti-riot stuff, surveillance tech etc that they explicitly test on their simmering conflict next door. The only way this happens realistically is when the current Israeli line loses national and international support.
      • there has to be an expansion of practical rights of Palestinians, and probably in the end a one-state solution where they become Israeli citizens (in a country probably not called Israel anymore) and have equal rights, including voting rights. But at the very least the blockade of Gaza has to end, and Palestinians need the same access to wealth, education, etc as Israelis. Otherwise that’s perfect conditions for resentment that will only get worse.
      • this is a special case of the first bullet point, but Palestinians who were driven from their homes during the establishment of Israel will also need some degree of economic compensation for that, and ideally the ability to move back to where they were originally living

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      • redballooon@lemm.ee ⁨8⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

        Your second bullet point implies that Israel won’t exist at a point of “peace”.

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    • Snorf@reddthat.com ⁨8⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      Is it really about the holy lands? Or mostly about land and resources?

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      • rentar42@kbin.social ⁨8⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

        What it's "really" about is something that future historians can try to figure out, but in situ it's almost impossible to tell.

        We can list all kinds of factors that came together when the conflict started or which factors are around while the conflict keeps going for a long time. What it's "about"? That kind of answer only really exists in games like Civilization where the answer is "because a player wanted X" or "the PC faction AI decided that the value of war exceeded the cost" ... the real world doesn't have as neat an answer.

        Beware those who are sure about the "real reason": they are either ignorant of the complexities of societies and wars or they have an agenda.

        And even those future historians won't be able to pinpoint a single reason for all of this (or most other wars), because it's almost always multiple factors acting together.

        Imagine for a second a war that looks like it's "clearly about the aggressor getting land/resources": that might be the main reason, but maybe historical and religious factors made the war easier to "get going" for those who don't actually care about that (or the other way around: someone powerful want's to wage a religious war, but it's easier to convince the military to fight for the resources ...).

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      • Ordoabchao@kbin.social ⁨8⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

        From where I sit, it's literally mostly about dirt, rocks and oil.

        This is just a continuation of the crusdades from the medieval period. Let's also not forget just how strategically important Israels location is to the Western countries as it's their springboard into the middle east.

        There are a lot of different factors and nuance and play, but essentially it's over religion and "holy lands".

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  • livus@kbin.social ⁨8⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    @Snorf we would be a lot closer to peace if we could get rid of the arms dealers.

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  • redballooon@lemm.ee ⁨8⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    There can be peace only if everyone accepts that everyone else wants to live their life, too. That’s nowhere to be seen, in the greater region of the Middle East.

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