Comment on Sweatshop
SoleInvictus@lemmy.blahaj.zone 1 day agoPreface: I work in environmental, health, and safety, and industrial hygiene, so this is my job. Not stating I know all there is to know, just that I know some.
The problem is those are all recommendations, not regulations, so nothing there is enforceable. The NWS heat index advice is meant for the general population without accounting for any mitigating conditions - it’s a catch-all recommendation. It’s meant for you, me, and my 400 pound, 90 year old neighbor with congestive heart failure, all sitting in direct sun without any water or moving air. Millions of people work in hotter conditions on a regular basis, and can do so safely as long as extensive precautions are taken. It’s not comfortable, but it’s safe as long as people are smart about it. Is OP’s employer being smart? Maybe. Let’s go through it together!
Let’s go off of Cal/OSHA’s guidelines, which is a decent program. I think it needs a hard “stop working it’s too damn hot” cutoff, but that’s just me (and every other safety person). Anyhow… if OP has hit 95°F, with a relative humidity of 50%, their heat index is 105. For anything above 80°F, employees need access to a nearby cooler rest area below 82°F. A work environment at 87+°F (82°F w/ hot clothing or high radiant heat) triggers a further response from the employer, foremost in the form of feasible engineering controls - things that make it cooler. This could include air conditioning but, for a larger workplace environment, often ends up being ventilation in the form of big industrial fans since HVAC is massively expensive. Don’t discount the fans, though - I got one at auction and they seriously kick ass. If the employer can afford HVAC but opts for fans, it’s still legal as long as fans work sufficiently (i.e., this wouldn’t fly in a foundry but is fine in many factories), but the employer is just a piece of shit. 'Murica! Past that, we go to administrative controls - changing what people do. This includes mandatory 14 day acclimation periods for new employees, breaks in an air-conditioned space, scheduled hydration, monitoring for non-acclimated employees, and an emergency response plan. Then we’re on to PPE - neck fans, cooling vests, ice packs, etc. The stuff you use when everything else still doesn’t quite cut it.
I don’t know the exact details of op’s workplace but, based on what they’ve communicated, their workplace likely isn’t a serious hazard for a reasonably healthy, heat-acclimated adult taking at least most of the above heat illness precautions. I need more info (like if they’re working with ovens or other heat producing equipment) but my professional, somewhat off-the-cuff recommendation is employees be dressed appropriately, acclimated to the temperature, remain hydrated, take periodic rest breaks in an air conditioned space (I’d advise 10 minutes on the hour, maybe more), and implement a monitoring/emergency response program. Work won’t be comfortable, but it’s unlikely to hurt anyone based on my current, incomplete understanding. Is their boss a giant turd for not getting HVAC when building a helipad was a consideration? Definitely.
LillyPip@lemmy.ca 1 day ago
Yes, but mightn’t this OSHA info be useful to put the fear of god into them? Based on what I’ve read in OP’s post and comments, it doesn’t sound like the employer is taking any kind of precautions (break room with AC, etc).
There’s no legal case here, but if people are unreasonably uncomfortable, it seems bringing up the OSHA regs (specifically, not generally) could at least get them to improve conditions a bit.
My ex and my son both work in a state and industry where OSHA is a guideline and not a rule, but if you bring up a possible OSHA violation in a health and safety meeting, it’s taken seriously. Not because they’re worried about citations, but because often that can be grounds for a civil lawsuit if something does happen (it’s a basis for ‘they should have known). Companies will try to meet those standards to cover their ass, right?
I’m talking about residential and commercial property management, not manufacturing, though, so it may be different.
ZombiFrancis@sh.itjust.works 1 day ago
The fear of god isn’t enforceable. The main thing you do in referencing OSHA is to demonstrate a level of knowledge, commitment, or at least interest in the issue. And most of the time it is the appearance of concealing a condition that is the enforced violation. This is usually what companies are actually sensitive to.
So while an OSHA violation is a serious thing, the conditions in question here (heat) are not a regulation that can be violated and therefore enforced in the same way.
LillyPip@lemmy.ca 1 day ago
Right, and that’s my point. If OP shows more knowledge than the company (which seems likely if they’re acting this way) by citing OSHA codes, that might scare them into at least providing air conditioned break rooms, right?
I meant ‘fear of god’ in the colloquial sense, not literally. Like, many grossly noncompliant companies at least begin to try when they realise, oh shit, people working here actually might know their rights and might sue us if shit goes arseways, right?
StupidBrotherInLaw@lemmy.world 16 hours ago
The issue here is there are no OSHA codes to cite. The hypothetical the other chap performed was for a different state that actually has heat regulations. Op is in New York, so the only thing covering their situation is the general duty clause which is tough to enforce due to it not citing anything specific.
ZombiFrancis@sh.itjust.works 1 day ago
I get what you mean, and it’s a common thought and strategy. It just doesn’t work as well as one might think. Unless there is a union, employees are at a significant disadvantage. Forming a union would be FAR more effective than quoting OSHA regs.
The main thing is regulatory violations aren’t (usually) criminal so there’s a long administrative process to most enforcement actions. Companies overwhelmingly have the resources to litigate beyond their employees means. So if they have the resources to have legal council or a compliance officer, there likely needs to be a well documented paper trail of concealment or otherwise flagrant disregard or denial of improved conditions.
There not being A/C isn’t enough. Refusing requests to install A/C is better. The company removing workers fans to make a point goes further in a case. Then putting out an internal memo requiring zero ventilation and to lie to investigators is a strong case.
SoleInvictus@lemmy.blahaj.zone 1 day ago
Oh no, please argue with me! I always tell my crews to call me out if they disagree. I’m not perfect, I get things wrong. It’s hokey but true: safety is a team effort.
I would recommend bringing up the OSHA guidelines as suggestions on how to improve the workplace and thereby worker morale. There likely isn’t much that’s enforceable that they could report to OSHA as it stands - they seem to be closer to “really damn uncomfortable” territory than imminent danger, but there may be more to this situation I’m not aware of. Getting OSHA in for something unrelated but enforceable is a good tactic too. Keep in mind a certain dipshit administration has cut funding and gutted agencies, so response times may be slow.
I do caution folks to be strategic about speaking up and filing complaints, and to keep a detailed CYA paper trail of EVERYTHING they can for at least a year afterwards, more if they have a sketchy employer. While it’s illegal to retaliate, at-will employment makes it really easy to do so anyhow. I know - I, the damn safety person, once got fired for getting hurt on the job!
LillyPip@lemmy.ca 1 day ago
That’s great advice, thanks. Also, thank You for doing what’s a mostly thankless job that keeps people safe. You’re in an industry that’s mostly invisible but that’s vitally important, and you probably don’t hear that.
I appreciate what you do.
SoleInvictus@lemmy.blahaj.zone 1 day ago
Awww, thanks! I’ve worked in some dangerous industries, which tends to make employees very grateful that I’m actively working to keep their bones undissolved (not exaggerating), so I luckily get a lot of love in between the safety cop jokes. Plus if they’re nice to me I’ll show them where they won’t get caught napping.