Because it doesn’t make economic sense to do so. Outside of a few population centers the US does not have the same population density to pull it off. There may be a few routes on the East and West coast that are viable. But overall our cities are mostly suburban and too spread out to make it an effective alternative.
Comment on "We Took a 100+ Hour Greyhound From Boston to Seattle"
smallaubergine@kbin.social 8 months ago
Imagine if the US joined the rest of the civilized world and built high speed rail networks
Dead_or_Alive@lemmy.world 8 months ago
Dogyote@slrpnk.net 8 months ago
The “it’s not economical” argument is used very often for numerous topics and it always begs the question: not economical compared to what? Is the purportedly more economical choice accounting for every externality it creates? Is it only economical because it already exists? Are there reasons we should stop doing the economical option? Lastly, what unaccounted for benefits might materialize if the uneconomical choice was pursued anyway?
So in this particular situation, we’re comparing the costs of building and operating high speed rail lines in the US to maintaining highways, hundreds of thousands of vehicles, airports, and planes. We should also account for the externalities created by using this infrastructure, so a shitload of carbon emissions plus the negatives of car culture and flying is just an awful experience.
We should also consider what may happen if high speed rail was built anyway. I bet there would be so much more medium distance travel, people would be going on day trips to cities they wouldn’t have considered before. Previously unknown and forgotten areas of the country may be revitalized. Who knows what cool stuff could happen.
Anyway, it really sucks when people use the “iT,s nOt eCoNoMiCaL” argument because it’s probably not true when everything is taken into account.
chaorace@lemmy.sdf.org 8 months ago
At the end of the day, if something is economical, it basically happens automatically in a market economy. For example: It would be pointless if the U.S. government started running car rental stores in every major population center… because – duh – that idea makes money and other people are already doing it.
From that perspective, you could argue that it’s actually the government’s job specifically to do uneconomical things. That’s why running a government is hard; almost all ideas are uneconomical, so how does one manage to pick only the good uneconomical ideas? Good government policy requires the kind of foresight that can’t be gleaned from a cost/benefit analysis.
anonymoose@lemmy.ca 8 months ago
you could argue that it’s actually the government’s job specifically to do uneconomical things
This is an excellent point
Dead_or_Alive@lemmy.world 8 months ago
Spoken like someone who thinks money grows on trees.
Dogyote@slrpnk.net 8 months ago
Wow what an excellent retort, I must now go back and reconsider my entire belief system and everything I’ve ever learned /s. But on a more serious note, money does practically grow on trees when viewed from the government’s perspective.
bionicjoey@lemmy.ca 8 months ago
Imagine if the US joined the rest of the civilized world and built cities that aren’t 99% unlivable suburban hellscape
Dead_or_Alive@lemmy.world 8 months ago
I don’t know, people seem to live in these hellscapes just fine. In fact after Covid they are leaving denser urban centers and moving to the suburbs in higher numbers…
Turun@feddit.de 8 months ago
I think only very few people would argue for a fully connected continental network. But as you said, up and down the coast is a very good usecase for high speed rail and it’s a shame you don’t have any yet.
For what it’s worth, in terms of urban development some of the big cities do move forward. I think that’s often overlooked when mocking the US for its car dependency.
thelastknowngod@lemm.ee 8 months ago
It is possible to build trains/stations in lightly populated areas and have modern building codes in place to encourage modern, efficient towns be developed around them.
China took it to an extreme in one situation but it’s entirely possible on smaller scales.
Puzzle_Sluts_4Ever@lemmy.world 8 months ago
The East and (to a lesser extent) West Coast already do have quite solid coverage by train. High speed would be nice but the population density is also such that it probably isn’t worth it because of the frequent stops.
But yeah. People really forget the scale of the US. Our one country is roughly twice the size of the EU. And while we have the densely populated areas that are comparable to “France to Belgium”, we have a LOT of empty flyover states that are comparable to the ass end of Norway and so forth.
And in actual civilized countries? It is REALLY easy to take a train to a population center. Small town? You are probably catching a bus or renting a car.
Don’t get me wrong. The US needs a LOT of work and, from looking at the amtrak route, there are a few extra lines that would actually connect the midwest/southwest pretty well. You still wouldn’t take a train from NYC to California but you might from Kansas to Chicago or whatever.
HobbitFoot@thelemmy.club 8 months ago
There are plenty of routes out there that are economical. I wouldn’t expect one national system, but I would expect a series of state and regional systems similar to California’s planned system or the Northeast Corridor.
HobbitFoot@thelemmy.club 8 months ago
There is only one country that built a high speed rail network of length and ubiquity that would meet their needs, and that is China. Even then, the country has a lot of underutilized high speed rail infrastructure and built a lot of the network for other than economic reasons.
Even if the USA was to start a massive federal level HSR program tomorrow, it would likely be several disconnected networks which may never connect across the Rockies. The city pairs just aren’t there.
Dogyote@slrpnk.net 8 months ago
So what? You gotta start somewhere
HobbitFoot@thelemmy.club 8 months ago
I’m not saying you shouldn’t start, just that I wouldn’t expect a Spokane to Missoula or a Boise to Salt Lake City segment any time soon.
chaorace@lemmy.sdf.org 8 months ago
I’m curious, why wouldn’t Japan or France qualify as countries which have “built a high speed rail network of length and ubiquity that would meet their needs”? Yes, China has by far the most HSR infrastructure and world-leading HSR expertise, but surely at least a few other countries can satisfy such a mediocre standard as “meeting their needs”?
HobbitFoot@thelemmy.club 8 months ago
Both Japan and France have great high speed rail systems, but they are on par with a built it California High Speed Rail, maybe with connections to Nevada and Arizona. They may be national networks, but the size in the USA would put them more at the size of an individual state.
The scale of HSR required to take a trip like shown in the video would need to be on a system the scale of China’s system, not Japan or France.
And note that I didn’t say that high speed rail in the USA is bad, just that it probably wouldn’t be one full network; there would likely be gaps in coverage.
Chetzemoka@startrek.website 8 months ago
They mean meeting the needs of the US. France is the size of Texas. What works in France doesn’t translate to the US because of our sheer geographic size. China is the only country with high speed rail that compares in geographic size to the US.
But we absolutely could and should have high speed rail corridors that cover the east coast and west coast separately.
HobbitFoot@thelemmy.club 8 months ago
Exactly. The USA should have high speed rail, but it isn’t going to be one continuous network. We also shouldn’t set the expectation for transcontinental high speed rail trips as the marker for success because that is going to lead to poor investment in HSR.
anonymoose@lemmy.ca 8 months ago
What are “city pairs”?
HobbitFoot@thelemmy.club 8 months ago
Two cities of a certain size that are within the distances that high speed rail makes sense over driving or flying. It makes sense to connect Los Angeles to San Francisco, for instance. However, there isn’t that much density in a large part of the country to justify the cost of high speed rail currently.
Hell, a big complaint with California’s HSR implementation is that it isn’t initially connecting either of the two main cities; those segments are still under design.
So a high speed rail trip cross country isn’t going to be viable any time soon, and likely shouldn’t be planned for beyond mandating a federal electrification and signaling standard.
anonymoose@lemmy.ca 8 months ago
Thanks for the explanation!