Comment on history rhymes, or something

CitricBase@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

• alcoholicorn@lemmy.ml ⁨2⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

  The Young Turk movement started with medical students.

  There were quite a few pro-segregation protests when schools were desegregated.

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  • CitricBase@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

    Thank you for bringing those up. However, unless I’m misunderstanding them, the only one of those where the protesters were in the wrong were the pro-segregation protests, correct? But weren’t those protests by-and-large made up of parents? (Perhaps along with some of their children doing what they were told?) Not exactly the “rebellious youth sticking it to the man” we generally mean by the words student protest.

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    • alcoholicorn@lemmy.ml ⁨2⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

      weren’t those protests by-and-large made up of parents?

      Yes and no, a number of universities had pro-segregation actions by students including protests

      History is always more complicated and nuanced than any narrative would lead you to believe.

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• IDKWhatUsernametoPutHereLolol@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨2⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

  Tiananmen got deleted.

  Never knew until I immigrated to the US. And even then, its merely a brief mention on it and calls it “communism” (its not lol) and then the teachers proclaim its why “communism” is bad, USA constitution rule of law blah blah.

  Look how good the constitution is, its being ripped apart right now.

  Sure, the western world knows it happened, but its only a few shitposters on the internet cares about it. If you go on the street and ask the average westerner, they’d have no clue on what you’re talking about.

  A few posts on reddit shitposting on June 4 is not exactly being “Vindicated”.

  The CCP won, they erased history.

  The USA is now following the same path.

  Autocrats of the world have won.

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  • The_Decryptor@aussie.zone ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago

    Never knew until I immigrated to the US. And even then, its merely a brief mention on it and calls it “communism” (its not lol) and then the teachers proclaim its why “communism” is bad, USA constitution rule of law blah blah.

    That’s when you bring up Kent State

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  • CitricBase@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

    It’s possible English isn’t your first language? No worries.

    The word “vindicated” doesn’t mean “won in the end,” it means “they were right.” As in, justified in their demands, on the right side of history. Even of the protests I listed in my first comment, half of them didn’t actually win in the end (Vietnam, Occupy, Gaza, and arguably more).

    From Wikipedia:

    …(the Seven Demands) for the government:

    1. Affirm Hu Yaobang’s views on democracy and freedom as correct.
    2. Admit that the campaigns against spiritual pollution and bourgeois liberalisation had been wrong.
    3. Publish information on the income of state leaders and their family members.
    4. Allow privately run newspapers and stop press censorship.
    5. Increase funding for education and raise intellectuals’ pay.
    6. End restrictions on demonstrations in Beijing.
    7. Provide objective coverage of students in official media.[84][83]

    I hope that you’d agree that the students were in the right, and that the oppressive CCP was in the wrong?

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    • IDKWhatUsernametoPutHereLolol@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨2⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

      In Mainland China, most people don’t know about Tiananmen, the older people who heard about it didn’t know much unless they were in Beijing, my parents (in Guangdong province at the time) just think its some kids “causing trouble”.

      Most of the liberalizations goals failed, there is no free press. China is a State-Capitalist dictatorship.

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      • CitricBase@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

        Yes, I understand that. Perhaps I was not empathetic enough, I am sorry to hear that about your family being deceived, along with the rest of mainland China.

        The fact that the oppressive CCP won does not mean they were right. The world is not a Disney movie, the good guys don’t always win.

        “Vindicated” just means that the good guys were good. Whether or not they won.

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      • wewbull@feddit.uk ⁨2⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

        Fact is, even in the west we don’t know much. The historical record has holes. We know of the protests. We know the military went in and nobody came out, but I’m not sure we really know what happened.

        At least… I don’t.

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  • HasturInYellow@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

    They are winning.* It’s not over yet.

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  • uuldika@lemmy.ml ⁨2⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

    wasn’t the Red Guard also a student movement? it didn’t get deleted, but it’s definitely not looked back upon fondly. tbf most of what I know of it comes from Three Body Problem though, so I could be wrong.

    there’s also the Red Army Faction (Baader-Meinhoff gang) in Germany during the '70s which killed some people.

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  • ArchmageAzor@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

    If they won they wouldn’t still be trying to exert power. It’s not over until they stop.

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• Knock_Knock_Lemmy_In@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago

  there ever been a wide-scale student protest movement that WASN’T unequivocally vindicated by history?

  • National Socialist German Student League were literal Nazis

  • The Red Guards were a Student-led paramilitary group.

  • Japanese Students protested against the U.S.-Japan Security Treaty (Anpo)

  • Veganism?

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  • CitricBase@lemmy.world ⁨21⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    • Veganism?

    Hold up, you think the vegans are in the wrong? You can say that they’re annoying, but in terms of ethics and morals it’s not even an argument. It’s fine to not like tofu or whatever, but there is no amount of verbal gymnastics anyone can do to even begin to justify the modern meat and dairy industries. That shit is basically Animal Auschwitz times a billion.

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    • nsrxn@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨19⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      it’s possible that the modern industry is bad and vegans are still wrong

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    • Knock_Knock_Lemmy_In@lemmy.world ⁨21⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      I mainly put that in to see what reaction it would get.

      For arguments sake, there is a militant strain of veganism (e.g. PETA) that is not always on the right side of history. But the damage done there is tiny compared to the other side of the scale.

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  • smayonak@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago

    The key word is “widescale”. The reason is that a malignant narcissist can get a small group of cultists to do anything. But in order to get a msg group of cultists to do something, he needs a propaganda machine like fox News and they have a much older demographic

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    • Knock_Knock_Lemmy_In@lemmy.world ⁨21⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      I think the examples I gave were wide-scale for their time in history.

      But I don’t really want to argue against OPs point. The intelligent, not yet indoctrinated, youth are usually on the right side of history.

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      • smayonak@lemmy.world ⁨19⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

        I completely agree with you. There might be some exceptions but in general what you say is true: when there’s a sea change, a zeigeist, young people are the first to sense it. You don’t get sweeping changes and protests at the senior care facility.

        I think it’s also that the young have less to lose and more to gain. Most gen Xer are sitting around on their hands because they stand to lose much more than they gain. They have mortgage and car payments, children, and health insurance. If anything breaks, that can all come tumbling down.

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• wewbull@feddit.uk ⁨2⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

  Closest I can come with is nuclear disarmament. Not because I think they were on the wrong side of it, but I think it’s far less clear cut and there’s a credible argument that MAD has worked.

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  • JayDee@lemmy.sdf.org ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago

    We can’t really prove that MAD has worked without seeing what would have happened if we hadn’t done MAD.

    I’d argue that without MAD, the cold war might not have happened, which could have avoided a massive number of conflicts.

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• LeninsOvaries@lemmy.cafe ⁨2⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

  University students lead the Hungarian Revolution, and history doesn’t remember them fondly. They rebelled against the Soviet Union, which makes them Nazis. It’s a good thing our dear leader Stalin sent the tanks in to kill those students.

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  • curbstickle@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨2⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

    I had to look it up (dont know much about it), but in the Wikipedia entry it notes:

    Time named the Hungarian Freedom Fighter its Man of the Year

    And

    In 2006, Hungarian Prime Minister Ferenc Gyurcsány referred to this famous Time cover as “the faces of free Hungary” in a speech marking the 50th anniversary of the uprising.

    Which makes me think they were later vindicated. But maybe I’m missing something.

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    • rektdeckard@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

      I may be wrong but I think they are sarcastically self-identifying as a tankie?

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      • LeninsOvaries@lemmy.cafe ⁨2⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

        I’m not a troll, I’m a 100% serious and proud Marxist-Leninist. And I think there was nothing wrong with Stalin selling lumber and steel to Nazi Germany in the 1930s to make weapons with. Because I’m a real communist!

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      • curbstickle@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨2⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

        Oh its 100% possible, I have no idea.

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    • alcoholicorn@lemmy.ml ⁨2⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

      The guy you’re responding to is a liberal doing a piss-poor satire of a ML.

      The students protests was quickly co-opted by nazi collaborators entirely unaffiliated with the students, it’d be like if Jan 6 happened during the 2020 protests.

      The government vindicating those protestors also built monuments to nazi collaborators.

      It’s a complex issue, the students had genuine issues the government was failing to address, but if the soviets didn’t step in, things would have been far, far worse. For comparison, here’s what tended to happen in countries that failed to stop the counterrevolution around that time.

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      • LH0ezVT@sh.itjust.works ⁨2⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

        Yeah, that is why it was justified to shoot protesters. Because of what might have happened. The people are clearly misguided, we need to roll over them with tanks to prove we are the true proletariat. A lot of governments built monuments to Nazi collaborteurs. That doesn’t mean jack shit. Hitler was vegetarian and against animal abuse.

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