A choice remark: “We’re now defending the fact that we’re in Aukus.
“If we weren’t in Aukus, we wouldn’t need to defend it. If we didn’t have an aggressive ally like the United States – aggressive to others in the region – there’d be nobody attacking Australia. We are better left alone than we are being ‘protected’ by an aggressive power like the United States.
“Australia is capable of defending itself.
“There’s no way another state can invade a country like Australia with an armada of ships without it all failing. I mean, Australia is quite capable of defending itself. We don’t need to be basically a pair of shoes hanging out of the Americans’ backside.”
Gorgritch_umie_killa@aussie.zone 3 months ago
There are parts I agree with. We shouldn’t be putting all our eggs in the US technology basket, homegrown industry is best a diversified mix is second. Tying ourselves to the US technology pipe might work out, but it also might end like Keating says.
But his brainfart of an armada getting picked off before they reached our shores is fanciful. Last i checked we couldn’t afford to send a warship to the red sea because we don’t have enough sailors, and working frigates (was it 3?). Our submarines are rusting and going in and out of repairs. We have a few planes, but is that enough to pick off an armada? So whats to stop a serious attempt to lop off a nice section of the Pilbara? Lets be sensible, our military is functional but small, if we want to take our own defence seriously, then the current civic understanding and arrangements would need to change.
But the stuff on Taiwan especially. He is so wrong about. We as a nation should always defend the right of a peoples self determination. Not that we live up to that ideal very often, but he is from the side of politics that speaks in those terms more often, so his lack of concern is surprising. The Taiwanese very clearly want a separate identity to mainland China. And no shit they do, Taiwan has been a separate but related island forever. It has the awkward distinction of being the retreat point for the Chinese Nationalists, but thats a pretty small part of the islands population.
Anyway, i suppose its all way more complicated than all this, and thats exactly why I find Keatings comments on so many of those matters so poor. He presented simple solutions that would see Australia more alone instead of more engaged in the region. A loner nation, instead of a friend nation.
unionagainstdhmo@aussie.zone 3 months ago
The big thing in all of this is why would China invade us? We’re a very big country a long way away from China, maintaining such a territory would be a logistical nightmare for the Chinese as they risk over-stretching themselves
Gorgritch_umie_killa@aussie.zone 3 months ago
Yeah, I hated that example. Because its probably the least likely scenario in which we will use the Australian Military. As per our history shows.
Thats why i used an example of a more limited operation to lop off the Pilbara in some resource control scenario. Its, I don’t know, less unlikely than the whole of Aus? Lol
NaevaTheRat@vegantheoryclub.org 3 months ago
Dammit, typed bigly and lost message.
Why are we so focused on Taiwan? Australia ignores separatist movements in the Basque, ought we invade Spain next time they crush one? The UK won’t allow another Scottish referendum but post brexit they want out. Should we park warships off their coast? Indian Muslims are persecuted, what’s our battle plan here?
Military intervention is obviously not justifed, plausible or productive in those cases. So why Taiwan?
Zagorath@aussie.zone 3 months ago
The answer to that question is very simple. One country interfering with another country’s internal issues—even when those issues are really abhorrently handled such as treatment of Muslims in India or Uighurs (who are also largely Muslims) in China—is very different to the possibility of one country invading another independent nation.
Look at Germany in the 1930s. It wasn’t until they invaded Poland that the rest of the world cared enough to actually put a stop to it. The world never did anything about the Soviet Union’s Holodomor or the Great Purge. The world sat by during Mao’s Great Famine and during and in the aftermath of the 1989 student protests culminating in the Tianamen Square massacre. Nobody except the Vietnam government did anything to stop Pol Pot’s extermination of nearly a quatre of the country’s entire population. And the Vietnamese only intervened because among those targeted by the Khmer Rouge were ethnic Viets within Cambodia, as well as cross-border raids into Vietnam itself.
If China invades Taiwan, despite officially not being recognised, is an independent country. And everybody knows this. We tend not to respond well to one country invading and taking over another. (See: Germany, 1939. Russia, 2022.)
Gorgritch_umie_killa@aussie.zone 3 months ago
I hate it when that happens.
First, Basque, Catalonia, Scotland et al are independence movements. Taiwan is a functioning democratic nation, (albeit without the recognised status). They have their own separate while related history from mainland China, check the wikipedia on taiwan its got a good a quick run down near the page top. They were a Dutch colony, Japanese, then Chinese, now on their own again and thats only since the 1600’s. Spain and England are also no longer demonstrating bellicose saber ratling language and behaviour, while they still disagree with the respective independence movements; China is demonstrating a distinct intention to take Taiwan, with or without the Taiwanese consent.
Specific comments on each:
Basque: I can’t comment too much on Spain’s relationships with Basque and Catalonia. I do know there has been movement to make Catalonia more autonomous, i don’t know if thats the same for Basque but i’d assume the situations are similar. Which means Spain is on the road to a peaceful settlement that works for everyone. Its also notable that the EU’s ease of borders and trade has also helped the Spanish State and the Independence movements live more autonomously but still together.
Scotland: A referendum was had on the subject before brexit. The order of those looked very strategic, or stupid, at the time by the Cameron government. The UK High court ruled that Westminster has the only legitimate power to hold another referendum.
Immediately post brexit the Scottish did want out, however the tide has gone out on this subject for now, cost of living pressures, SNP corruption problems, need to vote out Tories, have all added up to send independence down the list of priorities.
But by far the largest problem now with Scottish independence is how would Scotland and the rest ameliorate the similar effects to Scotland’s and the rests economy’s as brexit is having on the british economy. Scotland is integrated into Britain far more than Britain was/is integrated into the EU. Think roads, trains, defence, finance, postal, and everything else. This now presents a tough question for independence advocates to answer, and preferably there should be a plan before the referendum with it, because as we found out ‘Brexit did not mean brexit’. So independence might still sound good to the Scottish people, so based on the recent brexit experience a sober discussion needs to be had, and a real plan needs to be worked out otherwise its all a pie in the sky rush of blood to the head that could cause people a lot of long-term pain in their lives.
Indian Muslims: The subcontinent’s story is huge, and there is no answer but to say there is no changes from the ouside that would have a positive effect. Don’t forget Pakistan and Bangladesh are Muslim majority and were part of India. Indian Muslims are far from the only peoples persecuted in the Indian subcontinent. Indian partition was fucked up, and maybe India is better off as smaller principalities as it mainly was before the British.
I recently listened to this series, its well worth the time and explains that part of their history so much better than i,
open.spotify.com/episode/24liH113yVBe3ccfO7U4Z1?s…