Do you understand that something doesn’t have to be illegal to be gross?
Comment on True love
Damionsipher@lemmy.world 6 hours agoIs your premise that 19 year old are not adults? Or that there ought to be caps on age differences written into law? Or that women should be infantilized until they lose any notion of being “young”? I find it incredibly weird how much effort and criticism is placed on individual relationships based on age-difference alone. It screams Puritan ideals of feminine innocence and the evils of sex. If there is evidence of coersion or grooming, let’s hear it. Otherwise all I see are efforts to undermine the notion that a woman (especially a young woman) is capable of making “good” romantic decisions.
porous_grey_matter@lemmy.ml 4 hours ago
Damionsipher@lemmy.world 4 hours ago
At a societal level, no, I don’t understand that. At least not in the context of broad criticisms and sweeping generalizations about people. I see little difference in saying that “age-gaps are gross” and say that “queerness is gross” when talking about social norms and customs. Both are value statements about how a person should be. I reject the foundations of that sentiment as being anti-feminist and forcing conformity based on personal values of how a person should be allowed to exist. Where laws come into play, they ought to be specifically focused on minimizing harm and prioritizing wellness. We set laws around social norms towards considerations of how we can regulate a complex world in an efficient manner. Yes, that means drawing arbitrary lines in the sand around things like age of consent, which is a short hand for age of generally accepted maturity. If we want to decide that people aren’t actually mature enough to engage in consent until 25, 30, or 50, we can collectively decide to enshrine that in law. That doesn’t mean the issues suddenly vanish, and it will likely cause all manner of unintended consequences (should someone who isn’t deemed mature enough to be in a relationship be allowed into the workforce, or to vote?).
TranscendentalEmpire@lemmy.today 5 hours ago
Is your premise that 19 year old are not adults? Or that there ought to be caps on age differences written into law? Or that women should be infantilized until they lose any notion of being “young”?
Are these all strawman arguments? Are they made to hide your lust beneath a thin veil of feminism? Does your faux feminist view actually help protect women, or does it help protect the men who prey upon them? Does your analysis account for material and social power dynamics?
find it incredibly weird how much effort and criticism is placed on individual relationships based on age-difference alone. It screams Puritan ideals of feminine innocence and the evils of sex.
I find it incredibly weird that anyone is immature enough to date someone half their age. As someone quickly approaching their 40s, I have nothing in common with someone in their late 20s, let alone someone who’s 19.
If there is evidence of coersion or grooming, let’s hear it. Otherwise all I see are efforts to undermine the notion that a woman (especially a young woman) is capable of making “good” romantic decisions.
Do you think evidence of grooming or coercion is often exposed before the damage is done?
It’s hilarious that you are trying to act like you are defending the woman in the relationship, while simultaneously assuming that anyone is criticizing the woman and not the 50 year old millionaire…
SethTaylor@lemmy.world 3 hours ago
Are these all strawman arguments? Are they made to hide your lust beneath a thin veil of feminism?
You hit the nail on the head here. Well said.
Damionsipher@lemmy.world 4 hours ago
Are these all strawman arguments? Are they made to hide your lust beneath a thin veil of feminism? Does your faux feminist view actually help protect women, or does it help protect the men who prey upon them?>
So I’m your worldview women are inherently in need of protection from men, who are inherently predators? Yeah, maybe go read some feminist texts before making broad generalizations like that…
Does your analysis account for material and social power dynamics?>
Yes, I would apply considerations of wealth imbalance far before applying considerations of gender imbalances, as wealth imbalances tend to create much more oppressive conditions.
I find it incredibly weird that anyone is immature enough to date someone half their age. As someone quickly approaching their 40s, I have nothing in common with someone in their late 20s, let alone someone who’s 19.>
Now whose strawmanning? Should every relationship need to conform to your notions of “normal”? Why couldn’t anyone use that same rationale to broadly criticize mixed culture relationships, queer relationships, or any other form of relationship? You can literally replace what folllows “I find it weird” with any descriptor - it’s not a reasoned position, it’s a felt one.
Do you think evidence of grooming or coercion is often exposed before the damage is done?It’s hilarious that you are trying to act like you are defending the woman in the relationship, while simultaneously assuming that anyone is criticizing the woman and not the 50 year old millionaire…>
The fixation on the 50 year old millionaire and not the specifics of their relationship erases the woman. What’s the millionaire’s partner’s name? Who is she as a person? Has she spoke about abuse, coersion, or grooming? Do old men always groom young women? Are young men impervious to grooming, coersion, and abuse from old women?
Do you think that narratives that place women as innocents who need to be protected are useful in pushing forward feminist golas of sex/gender equality? How? I think that empowering women to understand they are individuals who can make choices for themselves and who can hold otherwise in positions of power to account is a much better approach.
TranscendentalEmpire@lemmy.today 4 hours ago
So I’m your worldview women are inherently in need of protection from men, who are inherently predators? Yeah, maybe go read some feminist texts before making broad generalizations like that…
Another strawman… Are we talking about all men? When did I say all men were predators ? We are talking about a 50 year old man who’s been married several times and has defended the abuse allegations of his good friend Marilyn Manson?
Yes, I would apply considerations of wealth imbalance far before applying considerations of gender imbalances, as wealth imbalances tend to create much more oppressive conditions.
And you aren’t doing it in this case because…? Also, how often do you see a relationship between an old man and a teenager where there wasn’t a wealth imbalance…it’s almost like that’s inherent to the problem.
Now whose strawmanning? Should every relationship need to conform to your notions of “normal”?
Still you. How is being able to relate to someone not topical to relationships?
Why couldn’t anyone use that same rationale to broadly criticize mixed culture relationships, queer relationships, or any other form of relationship?
Lol, it’s telling that you are equating all of these to a 50 year old millionaire marrying a 19 year old. True ally.
What exactly is the through line between mixed culture, queer relationships, and “any form of relationship”? And what prevents them from relating to each other? Oh, I’m queer and so is my partner…we obviously don’t have anything to talk about. What are you talking about?
The dude is from an entirely different generation.
The fixation on the 50 year old millionaire and not the specifics of their relationship erases the woman.
That’s not a specific of the relationship?
What’s the millionaire’s partner’s name? Who is she as a person? Has she spoke about abuse, coersion, or grooming?
The whole point is that the power dynamic is obvious and can be abused to control the relationship. Including talking to people about the relationship.
Do old men always groom young women? Are young men impervious to grooming, coersion, and abuse from old women?
Is there not an established enough history of that happening coming from rich, powerful, and famous men?
Did I say anything about rich powerful and famous women not being able to do the same?
Do you think that narratives that place women as innocents who need to be protected are useful in pushing forward feminist golas of sex/gender equality? How?
That is the narrative you are attempting to represent this as. Women are systemically disadvanged on both a legal and economic scale that makes it easier for wealthy and powerful men to treat them as sexual objects. Attempting to ignore the systemic history of misogyny and then declare that if you don’t think women are capable of being invulnerable to these forces is misogynistic. Feminism not just about equality, it’s about equity and recognition that the patriarchy is maintained to isolate women from the equity that would free them of another avenue of control.
think that empowering women to understand they are individuals who can make choices for themselves and who can hold otherwise in positions of power to account is a much better approach.
How exactly is the 19 year going to hold their powerful partner to account if they are abused? Choosing to be controlled by a much more powerful man is your version of feminism?
Damionsipher@lemmy.world 3 hours ago
Does your faux feminist view actually help protect women, or does it help protect the men who prey upon them?>
That’s where you said that women need protection from “men who prey upon them”. Every statement you make suggests that women need protection from power imbalances and that society needs to focus its efforts on protecting them in their innocence.
Chloe Mendel is an NYC fashion industry heris. She was established as a corporate executive by the time she was 30 and has otherwise enjoyed a life guided by wealth and nepotism. In contrast, Billy Corgan was raised in a lower middle-class household in the Chicago suburbs, with his youth marked by an abusive father. Corgan is a notable piece of shit, but this was long known prior to the start of his and Mendel’s relationship.
Your fluctuating in and out of calling old white men evil and young women innocent and incapable of power seems directed at creating a worldview that erases women’s history and identity while elevating the power of old white men. If you actually cared about power balance within a relationships, I would have hoped you could provide a single piece of data on why Mendel was deprived of power, beyond “she’s too young!”. A woman who holds that much wealth and family power at a young age doesn’t exactly scream “incapable innocent”, though, does it? I see no reason to believe that there is anything nefarious to this relationship, or that Mendel was powerless from its outset. Sure, Corgan sucks as a human, but I see no evidence of his relationship to Mendel as being “wrong”.
I don’t disagree that women are systematically disadvantaged, but placing that disadvantage on age only obfuscates how women are disadvantaged in favour of a narrative that women’s choices are not valid in the face of the broader context of being disadvantage. All this framing does is further solidify the societal notions that women are enfeeble and in need of protection as they are otherwise incapable of defending themselves. It operates on a level that places women’s autonomy as a lower priority than discrediting old white men.
Avicenna@programming.dev 5 hours ago
Puritan ideals of feminine innocence
I don’t think most people here focus on the gender, it might be you who is doing it either for winning a argument by agitation or it reflects your internal state of reference on the topic. This is not related to gender at all in my perspective.
The main argument is difference in age, mental maturity and compatibility. Younger people, having less experience in life generally will have poorer decision making skills in this regard and are also more easily manipulated by more experienced people. You may oppose such a relation for the same reason you may oppose two people of the same age making kids at the age of 18. Ofcourse if you are their guardian, next natural step is to probe how well they defend their decision and how well informed they are in the potential gains vs losses.
I presume you would be less ok with this if it was 40 vs 16. But any age limit you put between 16 to 19 will be a blanket limit considering the worst possible cases in terms of mental maturity. So being ok for 19 and not for 16 is kind of arbitrary. The only tangible fact here is that 19 is just about the age where your life view really starts to mature where as someone at the age of 40 has had like 10 to 20x more life experience in their mature years compared to you. It creates the same kind of power imbalance that a teacher student has.
Damionsipher@lemmy.world 5 hours ago
If years spent as a mature person is a decider of relationship imbalance, should a 60 year old be allowed to be in a management position where 19 year olds are employed? We can play the arbitrary game of “when it’s someone adult enough to not be manipulated”, but to your point, it’s arbitrary. If age is indicative of power, is it the power differential we are actually concerned with? If a white man holds more power in the world by virtue of the world being a racist and sexist place, is it immoral for a white man to date a black woman due to that imbalance of power? What about wealth differentials? Should a millionaire be allowed to date someone without wealth? Should a 19 year old be allowed to take financial advice from someone twice their age? How can we be sure they aren’t being manipulated in their naivety? We have laws that guard against manipulation, exploration, conversion, and fraud. Do you think that age is the best metric for judgement in these types of issues? Should people be vetted for mental capability to engage in any number of acts, rather than using the standard of 18 being adulthood? Is presumed completion of highschool at 18 a reasonable enough metric to establish “educated” or mature, and if not, should we raise the age for involvement in everything from relationships to work, out or even voting to be more directly tested metrics, or older, to say 25, or 30?
SethTaylor@lemmy.world 3 hours ago
Is that what you’ll tell your young girlfriend’s dad when he’s about to punch your eye?
TranscendentalEmpire@lemmy.today 2 hours ago
Well … This person has clearly never had a girlfriend, that’s why they are like this.
Damionsipher@lemmy.world 3 hours ago
Is parental violence a good measure of what ought to be OK in society? Should a parent who assaults their child for being gay be used as a measure to tell if being gay is ok or not? Should a 19 year old boyfriend’s dad be vindicated in assaulting their 50 year old girlfriend? What about if it’s a 19 and 50 year old gay couple?
If age-gaps alone are reasonable grounds for violence, they are reasonable grounds for laws. Under the eyes of the law in every western nation, a man assaulting another man for pursuing a relationship with their 19 year old daughter would be considered a felony assault, and in no way aggravated (at least not in and of itself). If a 25 year old man is dating a 75 year old woman, is the direction of abuse and power dynamics static (i.e. should we presume that the 25 year old man is being groomed/abused)?
It never ceases to astound me how readily people are to assume 19 year old women are incapable of holding power/emotional maturity.
I’ll bet you’re the type who celebrates caricature of dads striking the fear of god into the hearts of anyone who would attempt to undermine the innocence of their daughters. I’ll bet you laugh your ass off at movie scenes where 16 year old boys have guns pulled on them as a “dad greeting the boyfriend “joke””. Yeah, real healthy society promotion going on in your head…
SethTaylor@lemmy.world 3 hours ago
I’m not reading this bullshit
Go tell all this shit to real people face to face and see their reactions. Deranged lunatic
Damionsipher@lemmy.world 3 hours ago
Coming from someone who espouses violence as a solution, yeah, you can fuck right off. I don’t think you actually have the mental capacity to read those many words, much less hold actual relationships in the world. When all you have is insults and you’re calling other people “troll” 😂