Comment on Transitioning in STEM

Tartas1995@discuss.tchncs.de ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago

• CheeseNoodle@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago

  Selection bias (which for the record means this is still a problem) the people who don’t discriminate aren’t causing harm so you don’t notice them but since they don’t speak up they aren’t helping either, so the jerks are still setting the tone. The solution is to not just do the right thing but actively call people out the jerks.

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  • Tartas1995@discuss.tchncs.de ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago

    I agree with you there. As someone in programming, I don’t quite have the opportunity to fight these things when they happen because… There are no women. (obviously linked to this) but I can’t call out behavior when it happens when I am not around. But I am happy to report that I have been vocal about my support of trans people and fought against transphobia, even at work. Obviously I am not happy it is needed.

    So I am trying to see and support victims of discrimination.

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• MisterFrog@lemmy.world ⁨23⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

  Personal experience from when I was newly an adult, and chatting with a female university classmate and somehow got on the topic of games and I started explaining what Steam was, because I just subconsciously assumed, her being a woman, didn’t know.

  She politely pointed out I had mansplained to her.

  I am very thankful to her for the experience as it’s stuck with me and saved me from making a fool of myself on more than one occasion since.

  I’m sure there are possibly small things like this, that you may have been been “guilty” of in the past.

  These men, are engaging in similar behaviour cranked up to 1000.

  However, it’s even more malicious with them, because it’s not like the last 30 years or so haven’t had constant and increasing messaging (in the anglosphere, at least) about feminism and ways in which women have been treated unfairly.

  So, it’s not like they haven’t had the opportunity to reflect, and change.

  In summary, yeah, it is kind of baffling, but I will say society, while largely better than 30 years ago, still does have structural as well as conscious and unconcious bias towards women.

  So I’m not surprised people like this exist.

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  • Tartas1995@discuss.tchncs.de ⁨23⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    I hear you but what cranked it up to 1000?

    Like I always saw my mom as a extremely competent person, as a child she was flawless. Nowadays, I see her flaws but I am flawed, so if my father and any person I ever met. I am impressed by my sister and how I can be like the person that she is in many ways.

    I am talking about my direct family because these women had a lot of influence on me. So I wonder, what was their experience like to think so poorly of women? Not blaming the women in their social circle for being “bad”, I just wonder wtf happened. Where does that belief come from? I don’t think they all had great experiences with their male role models but horrible ones with their female role models. So what is it?

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    • MisterFrog@lemmy.world ⁨4⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      I hear you but what cranked it up to 1000?

      I unfortunately am not versed enough in the topic to give a full answer on this, I’d guess upbringing, then personal experiences?

      I suppose it’s similar to people who are arseholes in general.

      Sorry for the very underwhelming answer haha

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      • Tartas1995@discuss.tchncs.de ⁨53⁩ ⁨minutes⁩ ago

        I didn’t expect an answer. I am sorry if I made you feel that way. I just wanted to explore the topic with the general topic.

        Your answer is a good as mine. I just don’t think people have good reason to be so judgemental to any group as vague as “woman”.

        It is an odd thing anyway.

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• Initiateofthevoid@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨18⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

  Something in me refuses to believe that these people knowingly and intentionally harm women. But it sure as hell looks intentional.

  Most people don’t do any of this “intentionally” in the sense that they are aware of the harm they cause. It doesn’t even enter the realm of moral consideration.

  To many, there is a genuine belief of superiority that is entirely subconscious. The easiest example is classic mysogyny in a relationship - the woman is “emotional” and therefore the man should be the one to handle “business”. That’s not just 1950s oppression. Some variation of that thought process is shockingly prevalent across generations.

  That man doesn’t really think he’s harming his woman. He thinks he’s helping, by being the man of the house. That same logic applies outside of romance. “I am more rational than she is, therefore I should talk now and she shouldn’t.”

  That’s not a thought. That’s just a foundational belief that spawns all the other thoughts.

  Ever been in an argument with another adult, and a child joined in with some naive half-informed emotional take on society?

  An adult usually placates the child - explains, briefly, why they’re wrong - and returns to arguing with the other adult.

  That’s how a lot of men see women by default. As inferior, naive, ill-informed, emotional creatures. Not consciously. Not intentionally. Many mysogynists genuinely seem to have the same intentions as the adult to the child - to placate and educate.

  But its fucked up, and it’s important to acknowledge that it simmers under he surface. The reason all of this is so complicated and messy is that it is so hard to see mysogyny for what it is.

  You genuinely can’t know if a single interaction with a single male was an example of mysogyny, because sometimes humans just condescend to each other. Sometimes humans are just shitty to each other.

  But women experience so many of these experiences in aggregate that they can’t give the benefit of the doubt to every man they meet, especially when the man himself might not understand his own implicit biases.

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  • Tartas1995@discuss.tchncs.de ⁨18⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    I understand all of that but it seems crazy that it would generate these results so systematically.

    Idk. I certainly want a world where gender is a fun little thing and not an life defining element.

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• BellyPurpledGerbil@sh.itjust.works ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago

  You’re simply not paying attention, because you don’t have to. Not to be harsh. I went from male to female and how I’m treated is night and day. You’ve never tried to see how the other side lives, and when you heard stories that went against your experiences you dismissed them like your mind is trying to do right now.

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• insaneinthemembrane@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago

  I think you’re naive but in fairness, it is shocking and hard to believe.

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• Ledericas@lemm.ee ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago

  I’ve heard in my university that a lab manger/ head was trying to always get with the female students, and would ignore male ones, or would not allow male to volunteer in his labs.

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• crmsnbleyd@sopuli.xyz ⁨20⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

  I understand now how people can believe sexism is not an issue. Do you not have any people who are women close to you who have faced this professionally?

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  • Tartas1995@discuss.tchncs.de ⁨20⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    Honestly, no. I am working in programming. There are no women. We both know why and the answer is sexism.

    But even on the way into the job, I have only twice experience someone telling a woman to not do IT that was when I was a student. 1. A classmate, and everyone gave him a lot of shit for it. Seriously, I don’t think he had a friend in the class afterwards. 2. A father telling his daughter. And there I jumped in and challenged him on it.

    It is difficult to spot sexism in a different department.

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• yarr@feddit.nl ⁨16⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

  Something in me refuses to believe that these people knowingly and intentionally harm women.

  One thing I think that goes too far is people either think misogynists represent 0% of 100% of men. It’s neither. There are some men that are extremely prejudiced against women and will cross the street just to bother them, and then there’s a huge slice of men that support women as best they can.

  I mean, if nothing else, incels definitely exist and they would treat the women in this situation wrongly. Do you think no one is an incel?

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  • Tartas1995@discuss.tchncs.de ⁨13⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    Fair point

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• SavageCreation@lemmy.world ⁨21⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

  I want to say that “unconscious cultural” doesn’t exist, but I don’t think I’m right on it. You can easily build consciousness on those topics and thus easily spot the cases with risk for any wrongdoing, and with how common and well-known they are, it just feels more like “willingly ignorant”.

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  • Tartas1995@discuss.tchncs.de ⁨21⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    Assuming that it is cultural, as it seems like your comment kinda assumes that. Like it seems you are saying, it was cultural but by now it is kinda intentional.

    I would argue “willingly ignorant” is bad but also not making it less “unconscious cultural”.

    If they were willingly ignorant but also no cultural sexist, they wouldn’t be an issue.

    So well you have a point, but I would say that the unconscious cultural sexism could lead to willfully ignorant and you would kinda expect it.

    I am not saying, you are fully wrong about the willingly ignorant part, I just don’t think it would remove the cultural part.

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