I disagree actually. I’m a sub and historically the Dommes who’ve been good for me hsve been ones who appreciated that I set boundaries right away and am clear and up front about my desires. It took a huge load off my Domme to know that she wasnt the one to ask for it.
Comment on Anon has his way
MountingSuspicion@reddthat.com 5 weeks agoYes, those are exactly the things that should be happening.
I think the aversion to it is often that it’s not incorporated into the foreplay itself. For more serious things it should be completely separate so that there’s no question what is part of the the play and not, but imho for casual sex there’s less of a need to have a sit down discussion about it. I’m a woman though, so I get that it’s easier for me to say than for a man to say. It sucks because a lot of that onus is put on the person coded as masc/dom in more casual settings, but that’s just the reality of it. I think if more masc/dom coded people incorporated it into their casual sex it’d be less taboo much faster. I don’t think femme/sub coded people are going to be able to push it and still feel like they’re inhabiting the space they want to, so I don’t know if we’ll see a lot of cultural movement unless heterosexual men start to champion this idea of incorporating consent into foreplay.
captainlezbian@lemmy.world 5 weeks ago
MountingSuspicion@reddthat.com 5 weeks ago
I think sex positive people generally appreciate when their partner is upfront and clear about their boundaries. I just don’t think it’s as common for subs to be the ones to start that discussion. Even your wording regarding it taking a huge burden off your dom implies that there was some pressure on the dom to ask for it. In my experience, the doms are the ones that start that discussion. My experience seems to align with other people’s experience when we discuss it, but I’m definitely not saying that’s always the case.
captainlezbian@lemmy.world 5 weeks ago
Well yeah, there is a cultural assumption that the more dominant or masculine partner initiate, but feminine and submissive people can resist that and when we do so we find ourselves with better odds and with better communication. It also means we’re more likely to scare off the people who are uncomfortable with us expressing our wants and needs.
I have particular experience with this as a submissive lesbian. Dominant women are often awkward about their dominance because they’re going against society’s expectations. And especially when it comes to hitting on women many fear being perceived as predatory. By merely being the one to initiate I’m able to break that barrier and display enthusiastic consent.
Ultimately I think it’s something that should be more common and that role/gender shouldn’t be a factor in who initiates
MountingSuspicion@reddthat.com 5 weeks ago
I’m really not sure that we’re in disagreement here. I think anyone initiating is great. I suggested ways for doms to do it that are more consistent with casual interaction than in kink communities, since there seems to be a consensus that subs in the casual scene don’t like it to be so explicit.
I’m not saying subs can’t or shouldn’t. I’m just saying that seeing as subs in more casual settings seem turned off by explicit discussion of boundaries, that it seems like a hard sell to then expect a cultural shift of them embracing being the ones to begin the conversation. If you can start that shift, amazing, but I don’t see a huge movement in that regard currently. I think it’d be ill advised for me to just tell newbie/casual doms “don’t worry have your sub be responsible for bringing up their boundaries”. I would err on the side of caution and I was just providing a suggestion for how to do that in a casual setting without ruining the mood. As I’ve said before, anyone can bring it up and everyone should bring it up.
Hacksaw@lemmy.ca 5 weeks ago
From personal experience in casual settings it’s femme/sub coded people that tend to oppose enthusiastic consent. The idea of “agreeing” to various acts doesn’t feel “subby” enough.
I suspect the casual femme/sub role is mentally coded the same was bodice rippers/literary smut content is where a strong masc/dom appears and coercively satisfies all the femme/subs desires without real communication occurring freeing the femme/sub from the “shame” of accepting and expressing their femme/sub desires.
I think it would be, to me, difficult for the concept of enthusiastic consent to come from just one side of the equation. Both partners have to find it sexy for it to be sexy. It needs to enter our sexual zeitgeist, likely through advocacy and proper sexual education.
I have a hard time understanding how to people asking for what they want and expressing what they’d like to do could possibly be unsexy to anyone. Like I’m watching everyone get off and have their sexual needs validated and acted on. Non enthusiastic consent sex is SOMETIMES hot like the movies where two people are on the same wavelength and effortlessly act on eachothers desires. MOST of the time it’s awkward lack of communication leading to uncomfortable positions and the partners ESPECIALLY the femme/sub role having ALMOST what they want, getting CLOSE to amazing orgasm(s), but through lack of communication not really getting there, or settling for less.
Ironically the people who most consistently have “sexy hot movie sex” without having to talk are people who have been having enthusiastic consent sex for a few weeks or months and are playing out a scene they both understand.
Whew, thinking all this out is making me feel some kind of ways!
MountingSuspicion@reddthat.com 5 weeks ago
Yeah, I agree with your personal experience regarding who is generally turned off by it, but I think that’s why it needs to be a masc/Dom lead thing. Subs are too turned off by it conceptually and don’t want to take the lead. I think the big issue is how it’s incorporated into foreplay. Unfortunately, being sexy and dom about consent is not second nature to everyone, but it can definitely be done.
“Do you want me to X” or “wouldn’t you like that?” can be sprinkled throughout foreplay. “Tell me when to stop” or walking someone through an RP scenario where you respect their no and then they have to enthusiastically express consent to proceed. Absolute basic outline below devoid of all sexuality and not actually phrasing I would use: “Tell me to stop” “I don’t want you to” “Tell me anyway”
Option A “Ok. Stop” You stop and then have some sexy banter and tell them they need to ask you to continue. You’ve now demonstrated that you will respect their no even if you know it’s just play and you have their enthusiastic consent to proceed. If they don’t want to proceed either they didn’t actually like what was happening or you can try to ask them what they want instead and now they’re in charge.
OR “No I like this too much” You can proceed and potentially ask sexy follow ups to understand what specifically they like. “Oh you like how I X or do you like how I Y better?”
The issue is there’s a fine line between sexy and cringe. Knowing how to read a situation will definitely help, but the concept of using consent to build suspense is not new. There’s a whole genre of bodice rippers where the woman is the one that finally gives in and lets the man take her because he insists he won’t touch her until she begs for it. It obviously requires more restraint from the dom, and different techniques work on different people, but generally a way can be found to put consent in the hands of a sub without letting them feel like the power dynamic has been lost. It really is an art form though and not everyone can be a great artist, but we can all try our best.