I’ve met ironic Nazis before. Let me give you a spoiler, they’re actually just Nazis at the end of the day. The ironic bit is just a mask because they’re too chicken shit to admit it to themselves and others.
Comment on Is there any non-zero possibility Musk was not doing a Hitler Salute?
FourPacketsOfPeanuts@lemmy.world 1 week ago
I don’t think they are nazis, I think they are fascists. And I don’t think they even think of themselves as fascists, I think they just think power sets the rules and that a lot of people on the left’s attempts at ‘fairness’ are dumb, and (they think) ‘well if you want to call that ‘fascism’ then you’re an overreacting bitter delusional leftie’
Or something like that
I suspect he did it to take the piss. And to signal to elements of the right / far right that they should breathe a little more freely
Same way his government department is “doge”. Same way he named Tesla’s products “S.E.X.Y”. Many many things he does are bait.
But do I think musk stands for what the Nazis did? No. And I think he, and his type, enjoy thinking it’s “ridiculous” that anyone thinks that. “Obviously” he doesn’t want to gas the Jews. “Obviously” he doesn’t think all black people should be lynched.
But I do think he thinks it’s ok trans people are made to fear. That sub cultures are made to feel unwelcome. That checks and balances in government are as changeable as the furniture.
I think he thinks industry should serve a grand national vision.
I don’t think he gives a shit what that vision is as long as it involves him getting even more stupid wealthy
So this pretty much sums up fascism. He’s a fascist not a nazi…
conditional_soup@lemm.ee 1 week ago
lurklurk@lemmy.world 1 week ago
I think it’s fine to consider a fascist who does nazi salutes a nazi
It’s not a very interesting hair to split unless you’re perfectly fine with fascists who do nazi salutes but draw the line at people who identify as nazi
FourPacketsOfPeanuts@lemmy.world 1 week ago
I think it’s a hair worth splitting because I find it very unlikely that he actual subscribes to the goals that the Germany Nazi party had. And I think he relies on this in order to cultivate the ‘owning the libs’ narrative he keeps with his supporters and acolytes. He’s fascist, and mischaracterising him plays into his hand to be honest…
lurklurk@lemmy.world 1 week ago
That might be too narrow of a definition though. There may be self-identifying neo-nazis who don’t fit that. There were probably nazi party members who didn’t fit that, during the war.
There’s also no level of nuance that will impress the musk/trump supporters… they’ll consider “the libs” to be overreacting if someone said it was a gesture in slightly bad taste.
laranis@lemmy.zip 1 week ago
First, I hope you’re right. Still a shitty world but less so than what I’m imagining. The whole “we understand power so we are smart and everyone else is not as smart” is spot on.
But, I think it starts with no intention of gassing the Jews. But after a few generals have been replaced with lackeys, and those “deportation camps” in Texas start to be more trouble than they’re worth, and how convenient it was when that one bunch of them happened to die, a new final solution starts to look more probable. And of course the perpetrators of the new genocide are not the bad guys. They’re making the hard choices. They’re the smart ones and of course it made sense to do it since digging a mass grave was cheaper than feeding 10,000 recently ex-Americans in a camp far away. That’s just good economics, people! You have to think like a billionaire!
That might have gotten away from me, but I do believe there’s a slippery slope and our new President and his orange skinned bff are waxing up the toboggan.
FourPacketsOfPeanuts@lemmy.world 1 week ago
As with how Nazism worked in Germany, I think a large amount of power and influence is happy to go along with whichever way the winds blowing but are not as committed to certain ideologies as much as the demogogues and fanatics. Hitler hid the final solution from the German populace, even when treating Jewish people like shit was a fairly normalised thing to do. That’s because even amongst the population of German ‘nazis’, many believed in the superiority of WASPs, would turn a blind eye to a Jewish person being beaten and robbed, but would balk at women and children being systematically exterminated on just a human level. Many “nazi” civilians were horrified and ashamed when the extermination camps came to light, even if they accepted concentration (prison) camps via ‘out of sight out of mind’.
I think it’s far more likely Trump and co will get into a situation where “natural” or mob “justice” does as much as they care to do in that regard. That is, if predominantly black areas of a city have high crime and murders “screw them that’s their fault”. If that leads to inequality and shorter lives “screw them that’s their fault”. If illegal migrants get turned back at the border and die in the desert “screw them that’s their fault”. If trans people suffer trying to fit into society “screw them they’re the ones who want to act different”. And so on.
I think it’ll absolutely result in suffering and death. But run an actual extermination camp in the 21st century? Well a) it wouldn’t be a secret at all b) for all its blagging America still very much needs it’s trading partners in Europe who would be horrified and c) a good chunk of maga would be horrified (some wouldn’t but a whole load would). As much as it’s fashionable to cast them all as brainrot sycophants, this isn’t quite true in reality…
I think Trump fascism is about power and about WASP culture prestige and superiority, but I think money counts for far more than ethnic ideology. By all accounts Maga has never had an issue with the EB-5 visa program (aka “buying a green card”). For about a million dollars anyone in the world can become a US citizen as long as they create 10 or more American jobs with their investment. Most of these visas go to Chinese immigrants, but applications are also accepted from Mexico, Vietnam, India, Nigeria etc. Last time he was in office Trump extended the program.
It’s all about power (according to them). If you’ve got money and you tow the line you’re fine irrespective of ethnicity. If you’re the “right kind” (white kind) of poor you may get help. Everyone else will find any kind of help very hard to come by even as their neighborhood becomes more lawless and lethal.
laranis@lemmy.zip 1 week ago
Amazing write-up. Thanks for the insight. I appreciate your contrast of the power/money dynamic in “Trump fascism” versus the ethnically driven dynamic in Hitler’s Nazism.
I’m having a moment of self reflection at my gut response of, “I hope FourPackets is right and all the human suffering and death is only due to defacto conditions and government passivity and not active genocide.” Both are awful but I guess this is the path we’re on.