Nevoic

@Nevoic@lemm.ee

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⁨Comment⁩ on ⁨non vegan pizza time⁩ ⁨⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago⁩:
If you think my point was we should be eating dogs, you’re a moron.
⁨Comment⁩ on ⁨non vegan pizza time⁩ ⁨⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago⁩:
Calling someone a bloodmouth for literally eating things with blood might hurt their feelings, but vegans have feelings too, and sometimes we’re upset at the idea that moderates can’t be bothered to give enough of a shit to stop literally shoveling blood into their mouths.

This is something I seriously hate from people like you, you expect vegans to be these bastions of angelic perfection. We already go through the effort of being vegans in a non-vegan world, but that’s not enough, we have to make sure we do it in a way that don’t effect the delicate sensibilities of people who pay to consume tortured animal carcasses.

The goal shouldn’t be to try to de-radicalize vegans for expressing their discomfort around literal abuse that’s normalized in our society. The goal should be to get rid of the abuse.
⁨Comment⁩ on ⁨non vegan pizza time⁩ ⁨⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago⁩:
While the civil rights movement was largely “peaceful” (loaded word with little meaning), it was also incredibly disruptive. People in the movement were very rude to moderates who advocated in favor of negative peace while reaffirming their appreciation of the status-quo.

MLK’s position here was not that the people within the civil rights movement needed to be more respectful to white moderates. His position was that the moderates were the issue. The people who consistently advocated for negative peace were the issue.

The leaders of vegan movements also don’t generally go around attacking the moderates of our time who appreciate the status-quo and advocate for negative peace. There are individuals that do attack moderates, just like there were individuals in the civil rights movement who literally physically assaulted white moderates (much worse than calling someone a cheese-breather and having their feelings get a bit hurt). Again, MLK did not draw attention to these fringe cases because the actual issue were the moderates themselves.

Veganism is the same. The issue is not the people who are a bit rude online to bloodmouths/carnists. The issue is the moderates themselves, their constant advocacy for negative peace in place of positive peace needs to be shut down constantly.
⁨Comment⁩ on ⁨non vegan pizza time⁩ ⁨⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago⁩:
It goes to show how much we purposefully disregard the ways of nature, actually.

Moral decisions are not made on the grounds of “is this natural”? A lot of things are moral and unnatural, and a lot of things are immoral and natural. It should be incredibly easy for you to think of examples, but if you’re really struggling I can give some.

They’re orthogonal discussions.
⁨Comment⁩ on ⁨non vegan pizza time⁩ ⁨⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago⁩:
MLK actually alienated white moderates to about the same degree that vegans alienate carnists. It was only retroactively, after the civil rights movement, that white moderates pretended like they were aligned with him all along. In 1966 MLK was polling in the low 30s among white Americans.

I’m sure future moderates/apoliticals will do the same with veganism. Lab grown meat will become a thing, we’ll outlaw our barbaric practices of animal torture and slaughter, and those future generations will look back with horror at how savage we were, and all the moderates will proclaim proudly that “I would’ve been a vegan if I was born in the late 20th/early 21st century”, and they would be almost always wrong.

It’s similar to everyone’s modern position on slavery. If you polled the majority of the population “would you be an abolitionist if you were born in the early/mid 19th century?”, you’ll get the vast majority of people saying they would’ve been, but the vast majority of people were not, and its not like we had some evil gene in us that got naturally selected out of us. People were just normalized in that environment. People today are just generally incorrect about what the impact of normalization would’ve been on them in the past (or even what the impact of it is on them today).
⁨Comment⁩ on ⁨non vegan pizza time⁩ ⁨⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago⁩:
MLK said it best, so I’ll just quote him directly:

I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro’s great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen’s Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to “order” than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: “I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action”; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man’s freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a “more convenient season.”

When moderates advocate for “kindness” or “civility”, they’re advocating for negative peace; the absence of tension. Vegans advocate for positive peace; the presence of justice. When activists advocate for positive peace, in the face of those who deny said justice, tensions rise and moderates fall back to this common trope.
⁨Comment⁩ on ⁨non vegan pizza time⁩ ⁨⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago⁩:
Your mistake here was saying “puppies” too early. You have to lead with a couple paragraphs of how you’re a flexitarian who has a farm and humanely raised animals like pets and then slaughters and feed them to your family.

Then list off the animals you exploit, cows, pigs, dogs, chickens, cats and ducks. Then their brain gets hit with the dissonance of “wait why did I support this and then stop the second they said ‘dog’?” That jarring experience can work for the intellectually honest type.

Saying it too early means they can categorize your post as satire easily and not engage with it at all mentally.
⁨Comment⁩ on ⁨non vegan pizza time⁩ ⁨⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago⁩:
This is an interesting theory, but I think you’re just wrong on several counts. There are definitely permanently online people who don’t do anything in the real world, but out of the groups you listed, vegans and MAGA members almost universally have material impact on the world (socialists and antivaxers would like to, but their impact is usually hyper-localized, so you’ll find more “only-online” types).

For vegans and MAGA, there is real direct action that they partake in as buy-in for the group. For the former, it’s abstaining from animal products, and for the latter it’s (at least) voting for Trump.

Claiming most vegans or MAGA people aren’t motivated to improve things for their cause is incredibly foolish. Like I said, an interesting theory, but it’s just materially wrong.
⁨Comment⁩ on ⁨The American People⁩ ⁨⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago⁩:
Until the tankies seize power and start killing the anarchists for being anti-state xd

Not all tankies would do this, but it’s happened before and it’s good to be cautious around those who want supreme authority, even if they claim it’s just “temporary”. If we see the Chinese state wither away and give rise to a truly communist society, I’ll be genuinely surprised.
⁨Comment⁩ on ⁨Clever code is probably the worst code you could write⁩ ⁨⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago⁩:
Coding happens in languages. This works much the same way as natural language, sometimes you’ll speak in a way that is very clear to you and people who speak that language, but not to others.
```
sumSquares = sum . map (^ 2)
```
vs
```
def sumSquares(numbers):
    result = 0
    for number in numbers:
        result += number ** 2
    return result
```
Function composition is clear to people who speak Haskell, and eliminating mutation/untracked side effects helps to keep behavior local and gives equational reasoning. You can ask your IDE what the type of sumSquares is, and immediately know without looking at the implementation that there are no side effects, and what the types are.

On the flip side, most programmers can read basic Python, the C family of languages has seen more adoption, and Python simplifies a lot of the syntax/concepts down to their most basic forms. Python tries to be the most like English, and this is both its greatest strength and weakness (English can be an abysmal language for structured data processing).
⁨Comment⁩ on ⁨a 320 year old elf marries an 80 year old human: Is the elf robbing the cradle, or the grave?⁩ ⁨⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago⁩:
Glad someone said this, it bothers me even with human ages. Like there’s this perception that as you get older you simply gain knowledge, wisdom, world experience, etc. Not a lot of people account for biological limits for knowledge/memory, nor degradation from aging.

If some young intern decided to try to have sex with Biden, I think there’s genuinely a conversation to be had about if that’s statutory rape. I think you’d need a healthcare professional to rule on if Biden has the mental capacity to fully consent. Similar to a drunk person. They’re still obviously a person able to think/engage with the world, but they’re heavily impaired and unable to fully consent as a result. Age impairs cognition too.
⁨Comment⁩ on ⁨[deleted]⁩ ⁨⁨7⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago⁩:
I don’t think revolutions are any more likely to be fascist than socialist, historically though genuine socialist revolutions tend to lose, mostly because international capitalism can play very nicely with fascism, but not socialism.

However if the U.S underwent genuine socialist revolutions, it’s an entirely different ballgame. The U.S has been the capitalist hand on the global stage for the better part of a century, constantly involved in overthrowing democratically elected governments in favor of fascist dictatorships.

With that constant capitalistic/fascistic pressure gone, and better-yet replaced with genuine socialism, you’d get a very interesting situation. You’d have genuine socialism in the U.S (probably followed by at least some socialist revolution or socialist-inspired reforms in Europe), and then rhetorical socialism in the east, marred by material capitalism. The contradictions of the global stage would intensify, and I don’t think there’s any Chinese theory for development in an internationally socialist stage.
⁨Comment⁩ on ⁨[deleted]⁩ ⁨⁨7⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago⁩:
It’s more counterproductive to be a non-vegan and try to convince nobody. I’ve had a good deal of success convincing people to go vegan. There are definitely vegans that are more successful than me, but you want to know who is always less successful? Non-vegans who rage online about vegans.
⁨Comment⁩ on ⁨[deleted]⁩ ⁨⁨7⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago⁩:
Also I’d go as far to claim malapropisms don’t exist. There is no “incorrect” use of a word. I’m not a prescriptivist. Language is about communicating ideas, and I know everything I’ve said would make sense to a great deal of people I know.

Maybe something doesn’t make sense to you, maybe because we learned different definitions or usages of some word or phrase. Neither of us are wrong, we’ve just hit a language barrier. This is uncommon in English, but actually happens quite regularly in Europe even with two people speaking “the same language”.

Our best example of this is going from American -> British English, but it can happen within the same “dialect” too.
⁨Comment⁩ on ⁨[deleted]⁩ ⁨⁨7⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago⁩:
Feel free to correct me, most (or dare I say all) people aren’t born omniscient, so sometimes we misuse words or phrases. I’m not sorry to admit that I’m sometimes incorrect about things, I used to be a staunch non-vegan for example.

what state is forcing a diet on you

The dog and cat meat trade prohibition act in 2018 outlaws the slaughter and trade of dog/cat meat, in effect banning it as a diet.

I’d be more than happy with this exact same legislation being passed, but just for chickens/cows/pigs/etc. too. If you don’t think that this is prohibiting a diet, sure. Let’s just ban the slaughter/trade of cow/pig/chicken meat and say we found a good compromise.
⁨Comment⁩ on ⁨[deleted]⁩ ⁨⁨7⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago⁩:
It’s impressive watching you repeatedly sidestep the main point, about how your view of dogs/cats is inconsistent with your view of pigs/cows/chickens.

I’m not a moral leader, I’m making points you repeatedly sidestep with ad-hominems. You can’t articulate counter points, so you repeatedly attack me as an individual. It’s awesome.
⁨Comment⁩ on ⁨[deleted]⁩ ⁨⁨7⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago⁩:
The really cool thing about actually every person I’ve met or heard of online, in person, etc. is anytime they’re not vegan due to a health issue, they can’t actually say what that health issue is.

People are genuinely more open about any other aspect of their health or mental state. People more readily open up about their schizophrenia or suicidal-level depression than whatever mysterious health issue “prevents veganism”.

It’s cool too, because there is actually no medical issue that prevents veganism. Every major health association has come out and said a vegan diet is suitable for literally all people at all stages of life. That might seem reductive, until you realize how many different vegan foods there are. You’re likely able to eat beans, lettuce, and rice, and those 3 things alone have sustained poor people for decades. Living in a rich western country makes this vastly easier too.

It’s just funny hearing the broad, fake excuse because so many people use it when it’s totally incoherent by the account of every major medical association.
⁨Comment⁩ on ⁨[deleted]⁩ ⁨⁨7⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago⁩:
A small sidenote too about your advice, I appreciate you trying to help, but I’m actually happy with how many people I’ve converted and continue to convert to veganism. I’d even bet good money that I’ve converted more people to veganism than you.

If you find a tactic that converts more than a few dozen people per year, let me know, but I’d be out of the two of us I have more actual real world experience converting people to veganism, given I’m the vegan activist, and maybe you should consider the possibility that a vegan activist might know more about vegan activism than a non-vegan.

At least consider it as a possibility, my friend.
⁨Comment⁩ on ⁨[deleted]⁩ ⁨⁨7⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago⁩:
Knowledge isn’t bad, and I’m aware of where I’m knowledgeable and where my limits are. I tend to be quite a bit more knowledgeable about philosophy than the average person, most people don’t introspect or read about where truth comes from. They often don’t even know or understand what an axiom is, even though they’re foundational to how we live.

If that’s all too much for you, you can literally just disregard my latter two paragraphs before you went into your defensive panic. I don’t (usually) need to get into the idea of normative truths to justify veganism, because ironically we live in a country of “animal lovers”, many of whom would happily literally kill dog abusers. I’ve unironically met non-vegans that advocate for the fucking death penalty for people who abuse dogs.

That amount of dissonance, to advocate for actual death for humans who abuse animals, while themselves literally paying for animal abuse, is sufficient to dismantle people’s entire preconception of animal rights and worth. If we happened to live in a society without massive hypocrites, where people consistently held that abusing and torturing all “lesser” animals was okay, I’d have to get into more nuanced discussion about the nature of truth to help people get to veganism.
⁨Comment⁩ on ⁨[deleted]⁩ ⁨⁨7⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago⁩:
I understand this response, it must be emotionally hard to be challenged in such a concrete and decisive way, with no rational response. I see this most commonly from carnists and religious people. In politics people don’t tend to literally fall into “LALALALA” and plugging their ears like you have, but certain social conditioning (namely church and other forms of normalized structural violence) cause people to go into a defensive panic.

Good luck on learning anything in your life, honestly.
⁨Comment⁩ on ⁨[deleted]⁩ ⁨⁨7⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago⁩:
Dark humor is a real thing, and it’s fine and even cathartic for a lot of people. Joking about fascists, genocide-enablers, etc. is something some people find in poor taste, while others find it cathartic. Neither is wrong.
⁨Comment⁩ on ⁨[deleted]⁩ ⁨⁨7⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago⁩:
I didn’t force anyone to follow anything, but the state does and you view that as a good thing. It should be illegal to abuse and kill dogs & cats, we can agree on that obvious truth. Your inability to see how that translates to pigs/cows/chickens is just irrationality/stupidity, nothing else.

I’ve had a ton of conversations on the nature of normative truths, rehashing it over and over again with pseudo-expressivists online is annoying, mostly because you all have actually no background in philosophy, so it’s like talking to a bunch of philosophy 101 students who have never given this more than a cursory thought.

You should look into the basis of knowledge, study a bit of epistemology. You’ll find the foundations for all truths, normative or descriptive, are quite similar. They’re all fundamentally based in axioms.
⁨Comment⁩ on ⁨[deleted]⁩ ⁨⁨7⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago⁩:
Sometimes it’s just venting, looking at vegancirclejerk groups/forums. Not every comment from a vegan about veganism is an attempt at activism, sometimes we’re just fed up with carnist bullshit and vent. If a carnist sees it and it makes them think, cool, but that’s not always the goal.
⁨Comment⁩ on ⁨[deleted]⁩ ⁨⁨7⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago⁩:
I’ve never understood why vegans, the ones the vast majority agree are doing something at least good (even if you don’t understand it’s a moral obligation), are the ones that have to cater to the genocidal masses.

Stop and think for a second, imagine you live in a wild, wild world where the vegan position is actually correct. Imagine that you’re a vegan, and those around you are actually supporting an unjustified animal holocaust. Then think about how your critique of vegans comes off. It’s the genocidal maniacs complaining about how they’re treated unfairly on the internet because sometimes someone attacks their delicate sensibilities.

It’s not my responsibility to engage with you in such a way that makes you a better person. Your own failings are your own, and my failings are my own. My failings are I sometimes make someone on the internet a bit sad, and yours are demanding tens of billions of animal deaths every year, a quantitative level of suffering we’ve never seen before.