In Americans politics, and you guys are completely bonkers.
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rockSlayer@lemmy.world 2 years agoBecause in politics, liberal means something else entirely. It’s an ideology defined by support for capitalism.
Klear@lemmy.world 2 years ago
rockSlayer@lemmy.world 2 years ago
No, not just in American politics. Liberal politics is a very specific thing.
Cryophilia@lemmy.world 2 years ago
It’s actually specifically not true in American politics.
Liberal in America = left wing, favors greater regulation of markets
Neon@lemmy.world 2 years ago
That’s absolutely not what it means
In the very closest definition, liberal means “if there isn’t a law against it, you’re allowed to do it”
liberal more broadly is just as simple: “if it doesn’t hurt me, you’re free to do it”
I mean, what do you think a “liberal democracy” is? The majority of Europe is made up of liberal democracies while also being social-democratic. France is a liberal democracy despite being heavily unionized and having huge welfare. How does that work?
It works because that’s not what liberal means.
Socially-Liberal, for example, is when you are liberal (freedom-loving / diversity-loving) in social aspects. You support gay marriages, you support freedom of religion, you support cultural diversity. Other Examples include religiously-liberal, culturally-liberal, or even politically liberal (you support the right to different political opinions than yours)
What comes closest to what you think it is is economically-liberal. Which essentially says that “as long as it doesn’t hurt me, you’re free to do what you want economically”. But even that isn’t what you mean. Is Pollution and accelerating Climate change harming me and therefore not protected under liberalism? yes, says the absolute majority of liberals.
Is lobbying harming me by making my Voice less weighted? Yes, say a lot of us.
So not even economically-liberal is a good term to describe what you mean.
I don’t know, what a good term for it is. But it isn’t Liberal. So please, for the love of god, stop misusing it. Words have meaning. Invent a new one if you have to, they all began that way anyways.
sukhmel@programming.dev 2 years ago
The problem here is that in the US it means a very specific thing, while in Europe it means another specific thing. I think it gets mentioned every other time when this holywar reappears in comments
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism_in_Europe …wikipedia.org/…/Liberalism_in_the_United_States …wikipedia.org/…/Modern_liberalism_in_the_United_…
Cryophilia@lemmy.world 2 years ago
Which would be fine except the fucking Europeans keep insisting the American definition is WRONG and refuse to use it, making communication very difficult.
Objection@lemmy.ml 2 years ago
“if there isn’t a law against it, you’re allowed to do it”
That’s literally every system.
Neon@lemmy.world 2 years ago
It isn’t / wasn’t
There are/were a lot of systems where you need to be granted a privilege in order to do something.
And just as many where the laws aren’t defined so anything can be laid out as illegal
Objection@lemmy.ml 2 years ago
There are/were a lot of systems where you need to be granted a privilege in order to do something.
Meaning there’s a law against doing it without said privilege.
“If there isn’t a law against it, you’re allowed to do it”
Even in liberalism, what you said is still the case. I need to be granted the privilege of a driver’s license to drive a car, I need the privilege of a medical license to practice medicine, etc. You’re talking nonsense.
And just as many where the laws aren’t defined so anything can be laid out as illegal
Such as?
maxenmajs@lemmy.world 2 years ago
I understand we don’t like capitalism on Lemmy, but I’m curious how liberalism fares versus the other capitalism-supporting ideologies that are more commonly found in the world.
rockSlayer@lemmy.world 2 years ago
I’ve thought about this for most of the day. Social Democracy (think Denmark, Norway, Sweden, etc) is probably the best out of all capitalist ideologies, but is still subject to the regressive nature of private capital. Other than that, most of them are complete dogshit. Capitalist monarchies, “anarcho-capitalism” (read neo-feudalism), US libertarianism, capitalist oligarchy, fascism*, etc are awful for regular people and horribly lacking in their analysis of capital and it’s relationship between the capitalists and workers. We’re currently living under neoliberal democracy, so imagine things getting much worse for us. That’s what most of those ideologies are like.
* it should be noted that fascism is mostly just a death cult that loves hierarchies like capitalism.
Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 years ago
Fascism isn’t merely a randomly appearing death cult, but the violent death throes of crumbling Capitalism. Where Capitalism is failing, fascism rises. That’s why Leftists must thoroughly stomp out fascism while also pushing for Socialism.
Cryophilia@lemmy.world 2 years ago
In European politics.
American liberals do not support free markets. They’re advocates of greater regulation amd stronger unions.
rockSlayer@lemmy.world 2 years ago
yes, they do. Both* US political parties are neoliberal parties. Regulation of markets is still a free market. Unions do not inherently oppose free markets either.
* must go back at least 10 years for this to be true for Republicans
Cryophilia@lemmy.world 2 years ago
Stop prevaricating.
More regulation = less free markets. It’s a spectrum, not a light switch. Dems want more restricted markets. Repubs want freer markets.
rockSlayer@lemmy.world 2 years ago
It sounds to me like you don’t know what a market economy is.
Amputret@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 years ago
Free as in markets, not free as in people.