Comment on When did breasts become a thing that needed to be concealed in public and why?

• ArcticAmphibian@lemmus.org ⁨11⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  He’s saying that HISTORICALLY women were viewed as such. That’s his guess at what logic prehistoric humans went through, not his own.

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  • hysterika@lemmynsfw.com ⁨11⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    Are we really out here ignoring the fact that mans said that breasts were evolved for men??? Like come on, don’t make excuses for this guy

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    • AmidFuror@fedia.io ⁨11⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      Humans have evolved, and sexual selection is a big part of evolution in sexual species. Whether his hypothesis is correct or not, it's not offensive to speculate how things got to where they are now.

      You also seem to be making the naturalism fallacy. Just because things are or were a certain way in nature doesn't mean they ought to be that way in human society.

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    • otp@sh.itjust.works ⁨11⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      breasts were evolved for men???

      That’s not what they said though

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    • xePBMg9@lemmynsfw.com ⁨11⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      Evolution doesn’t have a preconceived goal it goes for. There can be pressures of all different kinds. I did not intend to convey that sexual pressure was the sole factor on the evolution of breasts. Clearly they have other functions. I only make the observation that it is a sexual signal for males in the vast majority of mammals. I believe humans are the only mammal with breasts that doesn’t shrink when they are ready, as it were. But I am a proponent of the hypothesis that it was evolved as a trait of sexual secrecy, to confuse males, so the female can attract the favour of more males.

      It’s alright to disagree with the premise that there was no sexual pressure on the evolution of breasts. You would probably be in the minority in the scientific community on that one though.

      For the record; I fancy myself an egalitarianist. I believe in women’s rights. I do not believe slavery is good for any kind of society. I really believe males and females are very similar. Small differences in our physical makeup. That is all.

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      • hysterika@lemmynsfw.com ⁨11⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

        Okay this is gonna be the last thing I say on this - a lot of the struggle that women today face comes from the idea that women only exist in relation to something or someone else, like children or a partner. Eg, your role is to start a family, wear makeup and take care of your appearance so that you are perceived as attractive and therefore valued. Making arguments that women have larger breasts as an evolutionary trait because of men wanting to procreate with them is an extension of that sentiment. Whether it’s true or not and to what degree - it doesn’t matter, it doesn’t fit into the conversation and it completely detracts from the point of women being hyper sexualized in today’s culture.

        I support you if your say you’re egalitarian or feminist or what have you, but please consider the different perspectives and examine your arguments within the wider context. We are more than just our biology lmao.

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    • zzx@lemmy.world ⁨11⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      Sexual selection pressure is massive in evolutionary systems. You’re forgetting that fitness is an indirect result of what is ultimately sexual selection pressure. A lot of people think it’s fitness first, sex second, but it’s actually the other way around, sexual selection plays a larger part, and is supposed to imply fitness, but doesn’t always. Without sex there is no reproduction, and therefore no mutations. Anyways, just remember, in evolutionary systems, they are not directly selecting for traits, they are selecting traits through the abstraction of sex and sexual selection. Sex is king here. IDK it’s weird but it is what it is.

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      • Fedizen@lemmy.world ⁨11⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

        Sexual selection is a theory thrown around but afaik the work hasn’t been done to show this is the sole cause. Enlarged breasts may have some reason to exist beyond sexual identification - there’s not a lot of mostly bald mammals that walk on two legs so theres not a lot of good opportunities to spot convergence in features.

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    • HauntedCupcake@lemmy.world ⁨11⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      Ah yes, I remember how the birds of paradise evolved such complicated dance routines and brilliant colours for the sole purpose of self expression. Or the brilliant peacock that evolved a huge unwieldy display just to feel good about themselves

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    • Siegfried@lemmy.world ⁨11⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      Hysterika, i think that may have hit the nail

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• xePBMg9@lemmynsfw.com ⁨11⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  I’m sorry it came of that way. It was not my intention. The gold bar part is perhaps a bit unfortunate. I was trying to illustrate and emphasise to the reader that doing anything carries a risk and that people of different regions and cultures have made different choices to manage those perceived risks based on their circumstances.

  I believe people, more often than not, make choices out of practicality. Morals, religion, politics, fads, all come and go. “Hey, wife, those guys are staring, I know it’s not convenient, but can you cover up” has probably been said by males partners pretty consistently over the years.

  The word steal might have been a bad choice too, now that I think about it. Perhaps kidnap would have also worked.

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  • hysterika@lemmynsfw.com ⁨11⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    I think a really important part in this is that in a situation where other men are leering at someone’s wife, the better response is to address the behaviour of the men, and not to ask her to cover up, because effectively what this does is shift the responsibility of their bad behaviour onto her. I get what you’re saying that many cultures are patriarchal, but it’s really important to be critical of what we’re raised to believe, and unlearn as much as we can, rather than continuing the cycle.

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    • xePBMg9@lemmynsfw.com ⁨11⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      I agree. I think that is where we are heading. In societies with high quality of life and high standard of eduction, it is already an expectation. Unfortunately there are places today, that are still somewhat mediaeval.

      To clarify; the reason why males might have initially made these requests of their partners is, I reason, insecurity and perhaps fear. Imagine you live in a society where you can not expect protection from anyone except maybe your own family. You find yourself in that threatening situation. Your choices of what to do about it are limited. From the perspective of both the victim and her husband. If most peoples choice are the same, it might become a norm and part of the culture, eventually. You can imagine how the resulting behaviour would probably have been supported by both sexes. Because they feel safer. Because it’s practical and easy. With time it becomes pointless. But it’s culture.

      If I were to find myself in that situation, today, I might have told my wife “let’s leave”. My choices in that moment are still limited. Of course I can report the incident to authorities and what not, after the fact. That sucks for me. It probably sucked even harder 12k years ago.

      I have never found myself in this situation, but I can imagine it. And I think my wife would cover up, not because she wants to, but because it makes her feel safe. That is not great. That is not an argument for bad behaviour. Thankfully we generally feel safe where we live.

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    • fiercekitten@lemm.ee ⁨11⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      I think any Lemmy users who would downvote you for this should take some time and look inward.

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