Comment on "I wish you well in your future endeavors"
Kusimulkku@lemm.ee 8 months agosince you already know I’m Australian, you probably knew I can’t speak Finnish.
I’m not sure where I was supposed to know that from but I was making a claim and I think it was a fair assumption you knew what you were talking about since you dismissed it right away. So having to read Finnish sources about a Finnish topic doesn’t seem like too much to ask. I’m not sure how you got to your conclusion before that the stats are “actually twisted made up bullshit if you look into it” if you can’t speak Finnish and don’t know how to translate them. If it was through English language sources, surely you can use them here to help your argument about the stats being bullshit.
So like, great job there.
Nobody forced you to make a claim that the stats are bullshit without even having checked them.
Suspects. That right there is the problem.
Not just suspects, as shown in the Government of Finland and University of Helsinki studies. Did you even look at them?
The difference is, racists will take these statistics - which often reveal racist policing and the effects of discrimination rather than saying anything about actual races
Again something discussed in the studies. Racial bias hasn’t been in any study shown to be anywhere near enough as an explanatory factor for having so much higher rate of sexual violence. Another things they’ve considered were for example poverty, culture, trauma and so on. I think poverty was ruled out as well, since even with racial bias, it still was much too high compared to population average. Some sort of combined factor is what they’ve considered, but a lot of the studies are unsure what causes it, but studies are very confident that’s it’s both a real thing and not made up by bias.
Whatever the explanatory factors, same as with men being violent towards women, the discussion is about what the real effect is and if that justifies blanket prejudice.
The difference is clear, and if you can’t see the difference, then maybe you don’t actually care about the people that are being hurt, and you only care about the rhetoric. I don’t know, but I do know you’re missing the point.
I’ve just provided you the studies that show that the much higher than average prevalence for sexual violence among some immigrant groups. It’s a real thing. Men being violent against women is a real thing. I care that people are hurt. I’m saying I don’t think it would be fair to call all men, in a blanket statement way, violent or call all of the men in certain immigrant groups racist.
Excrubulent@slrpnk.net 8 months ago
Okay, I’m going to explain this:
Whenever you look at a racist trying to use statistics to bolster their worldview, it always winds up being thinly disguised bullshit. Not the statistic, but how they abuse them and pretend they say things they don’t. That’s a consistent pattern, and your attempts to do the same thing so far don’t seem to be any different.
Of course I looked at them. That is how - please read this, and try to internalise it - I knew they were written in Finnish and I couldn’t read them. What do you want me to do with them, exactly?
It’s muddy and the exact mechanisms aren’t clear as to why there are these discrepancies.
The femicide thing is extremely clear.
Kusimulkku@lemm.ee 8 months ago
I’m not arguing for racism against any groups. My point is the opposite. Yes the statistics (which you claimed are bullshit but haven’t been able to dismiss in any way) show that certain immigrant groups are way overrepresented in sexual violence. Yes, men are more violent towards women than women are towards women. But I specifically don’t think it justifies blanket statements and labeling all of them as violent or rapists and definitely wouldn’t be surprised if any people from those groups get bothered when such blanket statements are made.
If you are claiming they are bullshit then I’d prefer you’d show me how. If you can’t read them, I suggest translating them or providing stats or studies of your own that show the opposite result or dismiss the earlier stats and studies. Those can be in any language you wish.
If you are claiming my claims are “actually twisted made up bullshit if you look into it”, what I’m obviously hoping from you is the explain how. How did you come to that conclusion, is there something about these specific stats, if you perhaps have better ones or studies and or something.
I don’t think the exact reasons for that have been made clear, what mix of biology, culture, poverty, misogyny and so on makes it up. Same as the sexual violence case. Hell, a lot of those factors propably overlap. But as said, the end result, these people (men, some immigrant groups etc) are cause of the violence. But the whole point was that while I understand caution, I think the justification, blanket statements and mocking people who are hurt and alarmed by such blanket statements is bad.
Excrubulent@slrpnk.net 8 months ago
I understand you’re only using the statistics to make a point, and I’m explaining that when you look at the specific, actual information that is being revealed, the difference is clear. You seem determined to only look at the aesthetics of using statistics.
And I very easily dismissed the one that I could read. I’m not going to translate everything you send me so I can play whackamole with it, especially when we agree on the fact that the racists are wrong to use these studies. Unless we don’t, in which case the fact you have these in your back pocket ready to go really does say something about you, doesn’t it?
Oh no! That sounds like you just made a blanket statement that men and immigrants are violent. That’s actually something I’ve never done, unless you can quote me saying that.
You keep talking about “blanket statements”. Can you find the blanket statements I’ve made, please? You keep talking about these “blanket statements”. Which ones? Quote them please. I would like to know what I have said that has got you on this tear about racism and immigration and why it’s unfair to talk about statistics or whatever.
Kusimulkku@lemm.ee 8 months ago
It doesn’t seem clear to me. What’s the actual difference of men having a higher rate of violence towards women and one of those immigrant groups having having higher rate of sexual violence towards women? Both are real, actual things that are concerning, but what makes it okay to make a blanket statement about one group but not the another? That’s something I don’t understand.
Not at all. You saw the word “suspect” and thought it can be dismissed on that basis alone without showing anything for conviction rates. It’s an inordinately high rate of suspects and there’s an inordinately high rate of those convicted.
I mean, you sure dismissed it I guess, but rather with an argument that doesn’t hold much water at all.
It’s sorta the whole basis of the discussion, that the behaviour and rhetoric employed here is justified because it is backed up by statistics.
If you don’t feel like this is one then I’m not sure what it is trying to say:
“Tell me, do you know how likely women are to be killed by men vs the other way around?”
“The problem with “not all men” is that there is an obvious follow up question: “which men?””
I don’t think it’s unfair, I think labeling a whole group is.